Tracie Addy on Advancing Teaching, Learning, and Change

On season 4 episode 3 of the agile academic, I sit down with Dr. Tracie Addy, Associate Dean of Teaching and Learning at Lafayette College and co-author of the book What Inclusive Teachers Do. Tracie and I chat about her purpose in advancing inclusive teaching and learning, new projects, and change agency.

Transcript

On season 4 episode 3 of the agile academic, I sit down with Dr. Tracie Addy, Associate Dean of Teaching and Learning at Lafayette College and co-author of the book What Inclusive Teachers Do. Tracie and I chat about her purpose in advancing inclusive teaching and learning, new projects, and change agency.

Welcome to The Agile Academic - a podcast for women in and around higher education. In each episode, we tackle topics from career vitality to burnout and everything in between. Join me as I chat with inspiring women about their experiences pursuing purpose, making change, and driving culture in the academy and beyond. I’m your host, Dr. Rebecca Pope-Ruark.

Rebecca Pope-Ruark: Hi Tracie. Thanks for being on the show today. 

Tracie Addy: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. 

RPR: Yeah. I'm so happy to chat with you today. So why don't you tell the audience just a little bit about yourself and the work that you do. 

TA: Sure. I'm the Associate Dean of Teaching and Learning at Lafayette College. So I oversee our Center for Teaching and Learning. I'm the director and so my work is basically an educational development and supporting instructors in their teaching efforts. So I spent a lot of my time working one-on-one with instructors doing programming. We have students as partner initiatives, workshops, design institutes, all kinds of things around that. So basically supporting good teaching in higher ed is, is what what I do for my, for my job. 

RPR: And that leads us into really the first big question, though. I like to jump into the deep end really quickly. And I like to talk about four areas of what I think make, make a positive work life in academia. So purpose, compassion, connection, and balance. So when you think about your purpose in higher education, how would you define that? 

TA: Yeah, I really love how you have your guests reflect on that. Cause I think it's so important to do in general and just to be able to share it with others. When I think about my purpose, I think deeply about all of my passions that have originated in higher ed and how that journey has kind of happened over time since I was probably, like in high school, I've been really enamored by the idea of education and higher education. In fact, when I was in high school, I would actually go to different colleges and universities because I wanted to be on their campuses and I would study like in the summer and things like that. So I've always been like really attached to this idea of higher education. And even now, like I love going to college campuses. I love being on campus. I love thinking about what's happening on campus, seeing what's going on. 

And so when I think about wrapping that into my purpose in higher education, I really see myself as kind of like a change agent in teaching and learning. That's how I view myself in what I do. And I can see it, you know, and I know we're gonna talk about how do I live my values and my work and things like that. But I do see myself as somebody who's really thinking about how do we improve the environment for all of our students so that they're successful. And so I work primarily with instructors, but I also work in other capacities, especially at my institution, around thinking about teaching, asking those bigger questions, those policy questions and things like that. And so I see myself as somebody who sits in a space where I have the ability to help make change. And that change kind of ripples down from talking to people, interacting with them, supporting them and their teaching, but all the way down to their students, right? The students who we really wanna impact and have this transformative experience in higher education. So I absolutely see myself as as that, and I've, I've seen myself as that for a while at different times in my life. I feel like I've been able to do it or be and do the actual, like actions of that more than other times. But I've always kind of envisioned myself as that. 

RPR: It's so interesting this season folks, a lot of folks that I've been talking about, we've been talking about change and culture changes in higher education and the things that we need to be working on to improve our culture are environment for, for teaching and learning, but also for fulfilling careers and meaningful, meaningful work and things like that. So it's really, it's great to hear you talk about yourself as a change agent and being a, a champion for, for that kind of environment. I mean, what, what other kinds of changes do you think we need to be looking at in higher education? 

TA: So I obviously do a lot of work around inclusion. So I think we still are working at this. How do we support a diverse student body that comes to our institution so that they can be successful? There's still a lot of work there. I think there's been a lot of good awareness and some good action around it, but we're definitely haven't fully arrived, <laugh>, we never will. Uh, but we will keep working towards it and I think we can continue to do better. So I definitely see change according to different students, different populations, students and demographics for absolutely in higher education. And I know we can talk about this more a little later, but you talked about that work environment, right? And so when I think also about some of the things that I would love to just kind of improve about the culture cultures in higher education is also thinking about why, why do we do this work? 

But like also, how do we work together in ways that are positive, <laugh> and useful and productive. Sometimes in higher ed, we get stuck in these ways of systems of thinking and doing that's really problematic for our colleagues and also for our students. So I would also say that we really could work, I think o on that a lot more and a lot of our settings. And I think that there's a lot of good evidence out there that that's needed as we see people's challenges, right? In, in higher ed spaces, they're not like perfect spaces, right? Like for everyone, there's a lot of challenges happening there as well. Yeah. Yeah. Those are two areas I think we could definitely pinpoint to grow in. 

RPR: Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for thinking about what's working in higher education, what's probably working as it was designed, but isn't working for the most of the people in education or who are trying to do the good work of higher education. And thinking about Karen Costa kind of talks about the idea of being a higher educator, actually really thinking about kind of that higher educator, um, piece, which I really love and really helps me kind of think about what makes higher education higher and how are we impacting our students and our colleagues and our world around us as well with the work that we do. 

TA: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I, I agree there too. And we have to think on those levels. It's so important. I know we get so stuck in our microcosm. I'm like, I just do this. I just teach. I just do this. But we really do need to have that bigger thinking. So I really do appreciate that. Also, 

RPR: Yeah, it can be easy for academics to kind of think of themselves as independent contractors, sometimes surrounded by some sort of culture <laugh> that we're in. But we're really, for many of us, it feels like we're doing kind of our own thing. So how do we really engage and make those connections across our culture so that we can develop, develop the environments that we want to, to learn in and to grow in and to work in. Well, you mentioned this, uh, earlier too, and one of my questions often is, how do you live your values at work? You, you've already shared some of those values. How does, how is that infused into your work? 

TA: Yeah. I feel as if working in a teaching center, it really embraces all the things that like, I really value about higher education. So being able to invest in the learning of our students, but in a way that's slightly indirect, you know, it's working with instructors who work with students, but I also work with students as partners. Like we have student fellows in our center, and we also know the impacts of also working directly with them. They've had a lot of wonderful benefits from their engagement in this center. So the types of initiatives that we do definitely illustrate the values that we have. I think around that I have that I live around teaching and learning and that trying to change and improve the environment for everyone that's there. I also think about the scholarship and especially my most recent scholarship that I've been doing to support teaching, where I also see that some of that is, you can see my values in it too, just to actually ask research questions that are really important and critical to encourage the, uh, discussion as well as effective teaching in higher education. 

So I see that also as a mechanism of, of doing that too. Not just the work on faculty development, but also and getting it out there and disseminating it to the public as well. So I definitely see that born and lived out. I think most people would always say about me, like, yeah, we know Tracy really backs teaching and learning, because it just comes across, you know, in a lot of the ways I talk and the things I do, and also just where I spend my time. I'm really passionate about this kind of work. I'm very motivated to do this work. And I think you can kind of see it illustrated at all that I do, both internally at my institution, but also the things that, you know, I try to do externally too, to, to share it to a broader audience. So I think there's a lot of different ways that I live that out in, in what I do. 

RPR: Where do you think those values come from? What's the root of that, that engagement and that passion for teaching and learning? 

TA: Hmm. That's a great question. So I do come from a family of educators. I do have, my, my parents both have taught they, but at the K-12 level, and I think they, they were great role models, you know, in thinking about teaching and learning. But I think also, I wouldn't say it's just because my parents did it <laugh> that like, it really impacted me. I did see the impacts that they made though, like it was really clear in the stories and things like that, that they brought back. But I think me as a person as well, if I think about my own self, my identity, what I value, I've always valued learning and education and wanting to grow and, and hoping to change people and having experiences. It's rooted in that. It's also rooted in this idea that, like I've seen throughout my life where, and many have also probably experienced this, but like, some people have a lot of resources and uh, you know, things to succeed and things like that, but other people do not. 

So there's, there's a lot of inequity that happens in our world and how you can actually have these experiences with education and learning and how that can change somebody's path, somebody's waves of thinking and doing. And I've always found that to be particularly powerful. And I think that that really motivates me as well. ‘Cause as a, as a person who's very curious, myself, I always was the kind of child that wanted to learn everything <laugh>. So I'd follow my parents around, I'd be like, I wanna know how to do that. I wanna know how to do that, right? Like, so I'm naturally the curious person, but somebody who really wants to know learning. And so I think those values are really deep there. And if I can see like teachers and professors are helping students do that, that's really intrinsically valuable to me, right? Like, I'm like, wow, that's wonderful. They're actually giving and serving in that way. So I think that's where a lot of it has originated, although I do have that family impact, you know, from seeing them too. 

RPR: I'm curious too, now that it's, cause obviously you wrote the book on inclusive teaching as well, um, and that's an extremely popular book. I'm just curious what's been the uptake or the most interesting things that have come out of that work? Reactions to the work or, you know, extensions of the work since the book came out? 

TA: Sure, yeah. Since the book came out, and it's so interesting when I think about our book, because I didn't go into it and my co-authors didn't go into like, doing the research study that we did to publish a book <laugh>. And so we actually did it ‘cuase we were like, we'll publish articles, we'll make things like that just to, to get it going. But then when we saw the story, we were like, oh my goodness, this is a story. This is a book, right? This is something that can be helpful for people, so we should definitely craft it that way. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't anticipate how popular it would be, and I'm glad it did. It also landed at a really important time, I think, in thinking about inclusion. And it's always been important, but like, obviously there's circumstances that are happening in our environment that also also led to that. 

But there's been so much positive impact on the, uh, with the book. I've had so many people just share how they've used the principles and practices and how they've transformed the, the settings for their students, like the learning experiences of their students. Now. It also has transformed their own ways of thinking, which has been really fun and powerful. The other thing is, I've been speaking about this a lot in many different institutions. So being able to talk to instructors at many different types of institutions, how they're interpreting it and using it in their practices across disciplines, across different types of faculty appointment types has been really neat to see. That's been really great. And it really helped us really see like, wow, we really need to have of these kinds of conversations and this information and this type of thing. It's, it's the book we always say that we always wanted to have for ourselves. 

So we're writing this as something like, I wish I had this when I started teaching. No one told me about this stuff, <laugh> when I was kind of sorting out. So we were trying to incorporate that now we wanna continue this conversation, right? And we also, I also am continuing to do work on, we've used, like we've developed a protocol inclusive teaching. We've been using that. I've been using it locally in my, in my center, but also been sharing it outward as well. But the next thing we're doing now that we ask is, is also we're working on book two. So book two is coming out in 2024, and we we're, you mean to finish up the first parts of it in the next few months. And it is a book that is the compliment of what inclusive instructors do. It's actually focusing on student voice in a large way. 

So whereas What Inclusive Instructors Do was like this, these are the types of things inclusive instructors do, right? Provide their voices. This next book we did a, a research study with students from many different types of institutions, demographic backgrounds, identities, et cetera. And we asked them what their inclusive instructors do. And so we, we have been able to synthesize that and I think really meaningful ways and ask questions of, of the students, and we're gonna get different things in this book. You'll see different things in this book that we couldn't quite get from just asking instructors. So we have their perspectives. So it's gonna get into that, but it also gets sent into this idea of observation and reflection. So it's representing more recent work we've been doing with visualizing inclusive teaching and really thinking about it and looking at your practice. So you'll kind of see that journey, uh, move in, in this particular book. 

And again, it's gonna be heavily student voice. We are also having some students write like the forwarded, you know, things like that in the book. So it's a lot of, it's gonna kind of emerge in that way, and I think people will, will find it very interesting and valuable what, what the students say. So expanding upon that in the next book, but also the projects that we've been starting and building, like hoping to do more around Inclusive Teaching Visualization Project, which is something I also started, but building on some of that and the work as well, um, and the protocol work that, that we've been doing. So I anticipate expanding that a little bit further too as well. So I'm looking forward to it. I have a lot of ideas, <laugh> and excitement, but we'll see what, what eventually we'll, we'll land on. But those are some things that are imminent and, and coming out. Can you 

RPR: Give us a sneak peek of maybe some pattern that you've seen in the student responses that's been really compelling? 

TA: Hmm. So it's interesting because we created this protocol, the Protocol for Advancing Inclusive Teaching, the PAITE, which we call it. And we basically are using, you know, research supported, validated teaching approaches in it that are reliably coded by, by anybody. And we use it, you know, for our students. So we train them on it. So some of the things in that protocol, you're gonna see some interesting things where there's parallels, right? Between what students say they want that and the type of approaches in that protocol, as well as some of the things in the book too. The first book you'll, you know, you'll see that too, but we're not trying to make an identical book. We're really kind of bringing out student voice. So some of the things that we do definitely see that comes out strong is choice. So students having choice in many various ways, and they really have appreciated that. 

So getting into those ideas of universal design and things like that for whether it's an assignment, other types of choices that, that they're able to make in the class and have more agency in their education. That definitely has been an interesting theme. And we also have done, been able to do interviews with students with disabilities, students who are neurodivergent. We've surveyed students also as well. And that's been really interesting to kind of also see their perspectives. You'll see that also emerged in the book too. We're gonna speak to more things than we did in the first book, but we definitely see how they've experienced their learn, their learning experiences. And some of the things that come up for them are also sometimes very similar to the other, to the students who don't have disabilities and things like that. But also they have some really unique things that their instructors have done that I think sometimes instructors aren't always aware of, right? 

So, but they could be equity, kind of more equity minded if they just did these in general, but they're not always aware, right? Of, of certain barriers that the students face with their disabilities and whatnot. So you'll see choice. You'll also see things like the welcoming environment, like how they, the professors get to know them, like certain things that come up, like names and getting to know your students, that, that definitely is there. In this book, we also will build upon things that our students said, were not inclusive. So that is a voice that was harder to put into the what inclusive instructors do, because we want the voice of students to say that. And so in this book, that will emerge because we ask the students deliberately that question. Some of them said, I'm not, oh, my instructors have been great, but like, you know, lot of them, you know, we have some things there that students did not feel were inclusive, like lecturing the whole time, not caring about your, you know, there's things like that that I think will also, um, emerge. 

Those are a few areas, but there's a lot of rich detail I think that you'll, that our readers will basically see in this, this book that I think will be really interesting. The other thing we're doing in this book, this is a little bit more, is we're giving some field notes and advice a little bit more than we did in the first book. So we are going to address a little bit of instructor identity and in, and, and, and integrating inclusive teaching approaches and things of that nature. So I think that might also be interesting for those who, who read the book as well. 

RPR: One of the things that I hear a lot from faculty, you know, my institution at other institutions too, is that like, everyone's just overwhelmed. There's so much to do. And since Covid that instructors just feel pulled really thin. But inclusive teaching is super important. It's really important for making sure that your students are learning and belonging and effective. What, what are some small things that people can do to improve their inclusive approaches to their teaching that might not feel overwhelming, but, but for folks who want to do better and want to continue to develop as educators. 

TA: Yeah, I think that's a great question. And this, there's like always these small steps that go a long way that our students will say, you know, the simple act of knowing your student's names and calling them by it, that's a small step. It does take time. If you have a large course use name tens, right? Like, just call your students by their names. Even we know that even if you just call them, you know, use the name tens and things like that, they can, that they really like that. Get to know your students, ask them about, you know, their interests, cetera. Those are small things that anybody can do. And, and to build a more inclusive course. And also they wanna know, a lot of our students, and our fellows have said this too, because our fellows, our student fellows are really wonderful because they provide their insights too, but they really wanna feel like their professors are human <laugh>. 

Like, you know, so professors sometimes will feel comfortable sharing certain things about themselves and their lives and sometimes it's like, go in education or, or teaching and you're like, oh, I have to have this certain persona. Right? And some people do have to care about that, right? Especially linked to identity of professors, you know, you wanna make sure that students are will, you know, respect you also as a professor, you have to have those boundaries and things like that. But, um, at the same time, they also wanna know you're human, that you care. So all of those things that you can do to demonstrate care can go a long way for how students see you. And building a more inclusive course, feeling more comfortable coming to you and help seeking and, and whatnot and reaching out to them too. So I would say those are a few things that to think about with regards to really small steps. 

Now we can take more steps and think about how do we pedagogically do certain things in the classroom? Like building in more experiences for students to engage more actively in their learning. Those types of things. Even asking simple of like asking students what do they already know, what the starting point is, building off of students learning and trying to gather information from them, allowing students to give more voice, ask them their thoughts on certain things, getting feedback. All of those things help also create that climate that I think a lot of instructors who hopefully hope for in a class that feels like it. It's also more inclusive and just like, be, be more attentive to your students. That's why we always say get to know who they are. They're gonna have different needs. They're not you, right? Like coming to school like again, like say like they learned like me, they, they have the same background as me, experiences as me. They're coming in from all different realms and aspects. And so building on that and seeing that and acknowledging it and respecting it. All really important things as well. So I think those are a few things so that instructors could think about. 

RPR: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think it, it goes back to even what we were talking about earlier, those i, those ideas of, of connection and compassion too. Making sure that those are mm-hmm <affirmative> kind of part of your lens when you're teaching and, and working with your students and working with your colleagues too. How do we mm-hmm. How do we, you know, make sure that we're being inclusive in our department environments and in our college environments, um, with each other as well. 

TA: Absolutely. I agree with that a hundred percent. 

RPR: You mentioned care and you're a member of the Care in the Academy project, so can you tell us a little bit more about that project? 

TA: Sure, I'm happy to. Yeah, I was really delighted to be a part of this project. And so we started in basically the fall of, of last year and we've been going for like the year. And that project is really focused on thinking about care for faculty and staff. So we also, you know, have a lot of things to think about for student care, but really that project, sitting in that space of faculty and staff and trying to address those, those issues. So that particular, this project led by Cate Denial, which I'm really grateful for all her work in this area and spreading it and making it go out to other communities is, so first time that we actually started in the fall, we would actually meet as teams to talk about ideas around trauma-informed teaching, pedagogies of care, um, and also disability. And so how could we think about what are the major issues in those areas in higher ed and how, what are some things we need to address? 

And so we, we met at those teams in the fall semester and that was really interesting. And we came out and produced some really important things that we think all institutions should think about or be able to do. The second semester, this semester, we were heavily focused on implementation at our own institutions. So we were moved into groups of institutions like ours. So for mine, for example, I was moved into a group with my team of three. So if you come from an institutional team, you typically have three. And some people are not an institution, so they also come in and that's fine, they're all kind of, it's all mixture. But basically our team has basically implemented some of these things in our campus and we've been trying to figure out how do we do this to give case examples and what types of things can be done. 

And so we're actually right now in the middle of writing up like a report on what each of our teams have has done and collectively giving advice. So in the fall semester on my campus, we decided to do like a needs assessment or like just an understanding of what people feel like at, on our campus at Lafayette Care means to them, what could it be like, could it, what's the potential there for change so that we could gather that information from, from both faculty and staff. And then we basically distilled it into some big themes that later we have started to, we're gonna continue this work ‘cause it's only been like, you know, like a year or so far, but we're gonna continue these conversations in the fall, but we've started to present it to different people, the outcomes of this work. And we're trying to think about how do we move forward, what are these actionable steps, right? 

In moving forward. And so that was a really interesting exercise. We were able to talk to, like for example, our, uh, president's leadership team and we've talked to our administrative council. We're, we're working with HR and all of these types of things, but some of the things that have come out have been really interesting and maybe things that people would possibly, you know, expect, but like recognition of people's efforts, right? Gratitude towards that, being clear in communication and transparent, right? That demonstrates care and recognition by the way comes in many forms from like a thank you to a public recognition to like that plaque that you get for five years of service, right? All of that coming out as well. But also being inclusive to different communities on campus and giving them access. So we're thinking about our faculty that are not on the tenure line, you know, our adjunct faculty, things like that. 

Or some of our staff as well in certain positions. And so making sure that they have access to different things. So those are just a few, but we came out with several big themes. And so what we've been trying to do is to think of actionable ways to implement those things, right? And on our campus, and some of them have already been underway, like more, more public recognition events and we've been partnering with different groups on campus to try to think about and brainstorm with them, how could we do this, right? So one of the things that I'll share that came out too is that the level of a department or an office or a center can be a really critical care unit, right? So the people that you work directly with. So there's institution level, like systemic things like we need to like think about, but there's also this smaller level of care. 

And so what we've done in my team, we just drafted a care guide for departments and offices to engage in care discussions and care strategic action planning around care to have those conversations with your team. And we gave some kind of, we had give some guided questions around it and to really think about how can we, you know, have an environment in this space that, that demonstrates care for each other in our work environment. Some of our departments we know do this like wonderfully, right? And some will really benefit from having a, a guide like this trying to adopt it. And in that guide we also went to the level of supervisor supervisee. Cause supervises might have independent individual care needs that supervisors could bring up. So one of the things that we didn't know, note that it's really important to talk about care. Some people have care hurts at our institutions, right? 

They're like, you didn't, the institution doesn't care for me or whatever. People have hurts. And then some people are just like, wow, like, right? Like this is wonderful. Um, so, and I've, I've experienced a lot of care and stuff like that, but I think the big thing that really come out is that we need to talk about it and we need to actually be intentional about it and we need to think about spaces where it is intentional and where it is carefully structured into what we do. And so I would say that that has been a really neat experience in thinking about care. It's not always easy to make these changes or sometimes in some places it could be culture shifts and it can involve a lot of people in groups and things like that. But at least at the level of units, we're hoping also to really, and have those conversations and then going up, we're talking. So that's why we're trying to straddle both all the levels, um, in thinking about care. So it's been a great project and I really appreciate it. So I'm, I'm really grateful to participated and to kind of see also, you know, our own institutions where they go in and some of this information, how other people will kinda digest it and process it and, and maybe use it, you know, later. 

RPR: There's such important conversations that we need to be having. Like how the, just the idea of having a care guide and having something that can help you talk to the people in your unit or talk to people in your group and really have that conversation about what our environment is like and how our environment impacts the way that we work and the way that we feel and the way that we build community is just, it's just really interesting, I think of my office suite right now as being a real place of care and, and you know, and feeling that and, but not something that we did on purpose or that we built on, you know, with on purpose, but we in some ways we were lucky or the, the with synergy or whatever, but how do we, how do we support that? And going back to the, just the idea of culture. How do we build the culture on that caring principle rather than on something else that's competition or, or something else. Sure. That maybe is, is innate in the higher education kind of structure right now. 

TA: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's like all of the, a lot of the reward systems, reward productivity, right? And all this stuff. And so, and also sometimes that we're so thinking focused on those things as, you know, faculty, staff, like we have to produce do, do, do, do that. We sometimes forget to neglect each other <laugh> and like that that, you know, like you mentioned, these really important conversations we need to have with one another because we're trying to do so much. Yeah. So that's wonderful that in your space you've had that, that kind of carry that <inaudible>. Yeah. 

RPR: Yeah. And I think, uh, I think of the faculty that I talk about through the burnout work too. And, and so many people are just hungry for a little bit of care for feeling like the messaging that they're getting maybe from an administration or leadership is not aligned with their values or what the values of, of what they think the institution's values are and just really hungry for recognition of, of difficulty and of stress and that it is challenging right now. But if we could care for each other a little bit more, maybe things could, could change on some substantial levels. 

TA: Sure. No, absolutely. 

RPR: I'm wondering, I shift gears just a little bit and thinking along that, those lines, I want, I'm curious, one of the things that's been popping up in my work a lot lately is this idea of faculty vitality and career vitality. So I'm just, I'm curious what maybe career vitality means to you. 

TA: Oh, that's a great question. So with regards to vitality, um, I guess it makes me think about like what, why we get excited to do what we do and what motivates us and drives us to get up to go to work each day and to keep doing that, right? So I think for me, career vitality also over the course of a career, people could potentially like go through seasons where they don't feel as excited or engaged in their work. And so what I imagine is it would be great to always be so engaged and excited about your work, but how do we make that happen to be most of the time that, that that's the case. And when I think about my own vitality, I mean I also think about different times in my life where I've had seasons of different types of career contemplation and value and reflection under what am I, you know, what, what really motivates me? What am I doing? And things like that. 

And that's why I think having these conversations like you're having here with value and things like that is so important because it helps us revisit that instead of going on this like hamster wheel and just keep doing what we're doing because we do it. But actually really thinking about what charges me and what's exciting and how do I continue my, my career. I think of also some, sometimes we get to a point where we do need to switch, right? Like sometimes it is time right? To, to go into another space, to, to get that vitality back, to explore new areas. And I really respect the people who also make those transitions. I mean, I made those jumps in my life sometimes where I've moved to different spaces and it wasn't because I didn't necessarily like the other spaces, but I knew that certain places I would go could also align with my values. 

And I was excited about those places. But all the other experiences I had really helped right? Groomed me in that and enjoyed what, what I could of them. So I think of also that when I think of career vitality sometimes, what continuing this reflective process of where do you need to go? Where should I be? And it might not be in five years, it might not be this, this space, right? Like it could be, and, but as long as I'm continuing to get, can be driven by my work and excited by it and find that. And sometimes some people might need to also take a break right from it and come back and I, I can completely imagine that and that happening. Um, sometimes you just need to take time away. So I'm hopeful that I'm, I'm getting at what you're asking about vitality, but I, I do think about that ‘cuase we do, if you think about all the ups and downs of what work could be like, right? How do you maintain at least some vitality throughout that process? What changes it? Like wh what when you go in other directions, what's going on and what should you do kind of next? So those are some of the things I really think about when I think of career vitality. 

RPR: Yeah. I think about a lot of those things too. And thinking about faculty who, who, obviously I do a lot of burnout work, so I hear a lot of negative environments and feeling faculty feeling overwhelmed or like they don't have time for the stuff that's meaningful or that charges them up because of everything else. Yeah. So thinking of those culture changes and, and some of those are care changes. They're, they're not necessarily sure, you know, full-blown culture changes. They're, they're changes in environment and how people engage with each other. I've certainly gone through my own transitions in my career from faculty to, um, more professional faculty development. So it's, we do need, we need what we need right at, at the time and making those decisions and thinking, thinking through and having that reflective moment I think are really important. 

TA: Yeah. And it's really, really unfortunate to be in a place or like, you know, when I think about even like if you, if you have a job and you're just like, oh, I dunno, this <laugh> like, like, you know, to be like, you're able to do that every day is but not as exciting. But I also like what you mentioned, this idea of care, like sometimes you're right. It's like that culture can actually shift sometimes. You know, it's interesting ‘cuase I'm wondering if you see this with your work that like if people really feel like the environment is really good, the people are caring, like it's a really stimulating environment, they, it might, they might work just as hard as in that other environment, but feel emotionally burnt out because of the problems, right? Coming in that other space and things like that. So I find that to be really interesting and I think it's, it's something we also think about. 

It's how do we, we'd hope to get to these spaces that we feel good about and, and feel care for. But yeah, there's a lot and there's also just so much for faculty and staff right now, all the transitions, covid and all the other stuff we're adding to everybody's plate. So I feel like this is such a great time to really think about care because of that too. It's always been important, but because we're gonna have to keep working in this every evolving world, I mean now what it's a generative AI in higher education, it's now this, it's now that, right? Education, higher education is so different than it was, you know, than it's been in the last several years. It keeps changing. So I think we really need to have care environments in the face of an uncertain world and like, who knows what's gonna happen and being ready for change, right. Flexibility and all of that. So I think it's, it's so important right now. 

RPR: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we, we also, we, it it feels like we need some training in kind of change evolution or change management <laugh> that we can keep up and, and maintain that flexibility without getting too overwhelmed. 

TA: It's so true. Yeah. Wouldn't that be great to, like, there's certain things that I'm like, you should learn in like, you know, maybe graduate school or something or wherever we, our training is beforehand, like just this, these, these ways of thinking and mindsets and, and doing, but being more flexible to change rather than just getting surprised by it and having to be flexible has been much better. I agree. <laugh>. 

RPR: Awesome. Okay. Well I wanna go ahead and wrap up, wrap our, our conversation for this afternoon. So I have one question that I always like to wrap up the episodes with. So, um, what's one thing that you wish all women associated with higher education knew or practiced? 

TA: Hmm. I, I like that question. So I would say that I wish women knew that what works for one person might not work for another. That we all have these different circumstances, passions and individuality and that we can definitely get mentorship and support. But really think about and acknowledge like your own identity and who you are, what motivates you and your values. You don't have to be like that other woman, right? Like, you really don't and that's okay. So, so that's something that I would definitely hope that most women in higher ed know that we're all trying to, many of us are trying to deal with many different circumstances. We have different life circumstances. Let's be kind to each other for that reason as well and just respect our own individuality as well. But it's really good to have people around you that can also be able to, to speak to that also, you know, to you and to empower you to encourage you in that too. Yeah. 

RPR: I love that. That's a great note to end on. Thanks so much for chatting with me today, Tracy. 

TA: Thank you Rebecca. This has been great.

RPR: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Agile Academic podcast for women in and around higher ed. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. To make sure you don’t miss an episode, follow the show on Apple, Google, or Spotify podcasting apps, and be sure to leave a review. You’ll find each episode, a transcript, and show notes at theagileacademic.buzzsprout.com.