Lee Skallerup Bessette on Technology and Neurodivergence

On this first episode of season 3, I talk with Dr. Lee Skallerup Bessette about pedagogy and technology, neurodivergence, and affective labor.

Transcript

RPR: On this first episode of season 3, I talk to Dr. Lee Skallerup Bessette about pedagogy and technology, neurodivergence, and affective labor. 

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Hello listeners. Welcome to the agile academic, a podcast for women in and around higher education. This season I talked with my special guests from all over academia, about purpose, values, and what it means to be an advocate in higher ed, for students, for labor, for kindness, and for balance and self-care. 

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RPR: Hi, Lee. Thanks for being on the agile academic.

LSB: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.  

RPR: Why don't you go ahead and just tell the audience a little bit about yourself. 

LSB: So I am Lee Bessette. I am the assistant director for digital learning at the Center for New Designs for Learning and Scholarship. Also known as can CANDLS, if you sort of put all the letters together. So I have to sort of pause becausew we never actually say the whole acronym. We always just say CANDLS. And so I have to remember to like act no one knows what CANDLS means if I don't explain it. But anyways, at Georgetown University in Washington DC, it's interesting in our, in our line of work, what titles do and don't mean and do and don't sign. But basically I am a bridge between the sort of traditional faculty development, academic technology, and online and hybrid learning. And so I do a little bit of everything in that sense. So I do some traditional kind of faculty development as we understand around, um, pedagogy, but always with a kind of digital learning twist on it or, or emphasis. 

I also do the kind of standard technology workshops consultations with faculty and I have done some, some instructional design as well with, with the online. And so it's, it's a lot of fun. Like I really like it because it, it it's always something different, right? You get to engage with lots of faculty, but lots of different kinds of projects, you know, staying on top of the technology and just being able to, you know, especially during these times, as we say, capital T capital, you know, both of them these times, you know, we were, we've been working really hard all during the entire pandemic about getting faculty ready for remote learning. And now this kind of hybrid mix with students quarantining and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's been interesting because most recently, uh, I just, we just had some, uh, we have a, a biannual event called digital learning days and it was, it was really funny because I'm, you know, assistant director for digital learning and I'm like, you know what, we don't really need more digital learning. 

Like we, we need to create space for faculty to like take a break, reflect if they don't know Zoom at the, like we can, you know, new faculty and all of that, we can help them get a, get acclimatized to our, you know, technology ecosystem that we have and system and structures. But like, I'm like really, we just, we need, we need empathy, we need inclusive pedagogy. We need all of these kinds of things. And, and I'll throw in how they can do that using the technology available to them. But like more technology at this point is not the answer. And so that's, it was sort of a really interesting position to be in, whereas like digital learning days, but not really. 

RPR: Awesome. So yeah. Sounds like fun it's and I think most people, a lot of people will know what CANDLS is because it's, so it's kind of a, a famous, you know, powerful organization and does so much wonderful work. It's great to hear more of, of what, what you do in that environment. So when you think about, I'm gonna dive into the deep end a little bit, when you think about kind of what your purpose is for your work in higher ed, what is maybe a driving force for you? 

LSB: So I think that I, you know, I've always wanted to make the learning environment for students better, right? To improve those sort of learning experiences improve like I'm at Georgetown now, but I have always been at public institutions, um, prior to this moment and I have always worked at public regional, comprehensive institutions, usually of one form or another whose primary audience or, uh, are what we would largely umbrella and problematic first generation students. Right. Or non-traditional students. So I've worked, I've worked at a Hispanic serving institution. Um, it was actually my very first adjuncting job when I moved to the United States. It was, um, you know, it was at a Hispanic serving institution in California. And then I moved over to an HBCU. And then I worked in rural Kentucky, rural Appalachia. And even when I was working at, uh, the University of Mary Washington, um, it's a public liberal arts institution, My favorite thing was when I was, when I asked, I always asked in a job interview now what are the students like at, at this institution? And it was told me that the students there were scrappy and I was like, and then I was like, that's interesting. And then I was like, yeah, no, they are they're scrappy. I love this. So I've always had this sort of, as I was in the classroom and seeing, and hearing the stories that the students had around their educations, around their goals or around the barriers that they've had to these, that I'm always was always trying to create an environment where these students could thrive and succeed and is very limiting when you're a contingent faculty member. Right. Uh, in particular you have no say over the curriculum, you have, you know, very little connection with the students often beyond the, a small handful of classes that you teach over and over and over again. 

So there's no opportunities to really create those kinds of lasting relationships at at first it was fun to say, tell my students, you're never gonna have a class like this in your life, in your academic career. And then it got really depressing because you're like, yeah, this is like a one off that you're gonna hopefully love, but then it's gonna be back to the usual grind when you, when you leave this classroom. And so the combination of factors kind of got me into thinking about faculty development. I was also always very interested, particularly for the students as I've always been a bit of a tech geek. I've always loved playing around with technology using technology and it was, is, and, and again, I, I come from a very privileged background and so it was always kind of a shock to me how a lot of the students didn't have that same exposure to technology that same curiosity about technology around seeing the potential of it. 

And I just, and there was also the, the, the idea of lowered expectations, right, is like, oh no, we can't introduce technology to these students because, you know, we need to focus just on getting them to be able to write. We can't have, they can't handle all of that other stuff. And I was like, Hmm, I don't know. Like, I think we're doing them a massive disservice. So there was this openness to technology, this willingness to talk about pedagogy and just the idea of being able to have a more, a larger impact on the institution was really appealing to me. And so to be able to, to move into teaching and learning centers or academic technology. So just have a way to, to shape that the, to shape those conversations, participate more broadly in those conversations and to not just impact the students in my own class, but to impact students in many, many classes by impacting the instructors. And so I, you know, I, I think it's, that's one of the biggest drivers for me is I really do care about the student learning experience and I want students to be successful. I think that it's, it's really important. And so it's, that's, that's probably the, the most rewarding part of my work is hearing the success stories from faculty of how it positively impacted the students who are in their class. 

RPR: Yeah. It's really important. The work, the faculty developers and educational developers do to support it's a, it's a trickle down, right. We support our, we support the faculty and they support the students in different ways. And we, we support students as well through the work that we do as an important piece of the ecosystem for learning on campus. Yeah. 

LSB: And there's also the, the other element too, the kind of, you could say trickle up, where are we can be powerful advocates for the faculty and for the students up sort of up the chain. We can have to varying degrees, obviously depending on the institution and how it's set up and all that have influence over decisions around the technologies, decisions around pedagogical approaches. We can consult on these things, particularly when it just things like tenure and promotion we can advise, but also the more faculty, which the faculty are the most powerful force on a campus. And if you change enough faculty's minds, right, they can also have that upward push on administrators on administration to be like, we need to change, um, certain things. And so there's, we often see a lot of initiatives that may have started and say teaching and learning center trickles down to the faculty that then circle back around and put pressure on the administration to make changes and important and significant changes to improve the student learning and, and even the faculty's jobs too, right? 

Like they have to. And I think we're seeing this during the pandemic. I knew this is an adjunct, but like the administration's finally starting to pay attention, but like faculty working conditions are student learning conditions. It's what the new faculty majority has long said, and the, the faculty are falling apart right now. And so there's gotta be some pressure on changes to take a step back and say, okay, systemically, what is wrong? What is going on? What do we need to change in order to maintain, to help keep students graduating and learning and, and keep the university running. Right. So, 

RPR: Right. Know that from the burnout research as well, that faculty wellbeing and health obviously impacts student wellbeing and health and the students are, are in a place of trauma and, you know, deep, yep. Deep concern. But we also, when we think about faculty, we also have to think about things like compassion fatigue, and empathy fatigue, and how do we, how do we support the faculty, right. We, a lot of the interventions that we have for burnout and what you're talking about are individual interventions, right? They're coping strategies. We're not dealing with the systemic challenges because it's easier to put a Band-Aid on one person right now than it is to make systemic changes. Even though this really is the time to be doing those kinds of things while we're making a lot of other different changes to the way we think and the way we work in higher ed. 

LSB: Yeah. And, and it, I'm gonna jump ahead because I know other questions, but this is why one of the things that I'm, I'm also really passionate about is talking about neuro divergence. And I was, well, I guess it's not recent anymore, but then again, time has no meeting, but I was recently not as a child, let's just say, so I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. And, but prior to that, with being undiagnosed, um, particularly as a, as a woman with that, we, how ADHD presents in girls and women is often different from boys and at least stereotypically, right. We think of the ADHD boy who can't sit still who's, you know, disruptive in class. So it's, it's all often very externalized. Whereas for girls and women, we often internalize it. And so our ADHD curls into anxiety and depression, because that's because we are trying to compensate so much for, we're not go, we don't want to be hyperactive. 

We don't want to be. Um, because I thought, what good girls do, blurting things out. We don't want to be. And we're often very awkward and not very graceful. There's a lot of other, like, kind of physical comorbid comorbidities that come along with ADHD as well. And so, you know, that it was the depression and the anxiety in my own children getting diagnosed that led me to read out these and then finally get my own diagnosis. But, you know, they don't call them invisible disabilities for nothing. Right. And we, for so long because neuro divergence, um, and mental health issues were often seen as individual problems because they were so stigmatized. And because nobody talked about them. Right. And, you know, it's, it's, it's really hard to change the system, like you said, with the Band-Aid, but like, that's always been like, why would they need to change the system when it's only like one person? 

RPR: Right, right. Um, because so many people aren't talking about it, so many people aren't articulating it. So many people don't even have the language to articulate it. 

LSB: Right. For, for anyone who has ever been told, what is wrong with you in that exact tone. Right. And you're just like, I have no idea, you know, it it's that it's that opportunity to create space and have these conversations and saying like the system in the same way that we talk about how our systems are not set up for our disabled and neuro divergent students, the system is not set up for our disabled and neuro divergent colleagues in the staff and in the faculty. So, you know, in this same way, we want to talk about pedagogical changes and systemic changes to help student learning. Again, we need to have these conversations as well, around, around neuro divergence, around mental health and the systemic things that we can do in order to improve the working conditions in order to improve the success in order to not have the as barriers. 

And I think it's, it's important. Like I said, like, oftentimes people didn't even have the language to be able to articulate, right? Like they didn't even know what it was that they were experiencing and it can be, you know, and that is also, again, one of the reasons why often a ADHD and other things like, um, autism, um, often end up in depression in, in men and women, but particularly women is because it does feel so isolating. Right. You can't talk to any, you feel like you can't talk to anybody about it. You feel like you can't articulate it. Um, and you think that you are the only one, right? Like I am, you know, you're D different and you have to, so a, you don't want to talk to anybody about how you're different. You don't quite understand how you are different. You just know that you're different and then you don't want to pre perceived as different because that is bad. 

Right. Difference is bad. And then, so then you, you just let it's, it's all your own fault. Right. Clearly everybody else has this figured out. I don't, so I must be the problem. Right. And so, again, you just, you just don't talk about it. And so if you don't do that, then you can't address it in that sort of way and, and get help and find help and get community and make change. So I, I think it's, that's one of the reasons why I do think it's so important is I think not only do I do this, you know, a lot for the neuro divergent, um, uh, students and those with invisible and visible disabilities to, to be like, no, you know, someone with ADHD, you know, someone, me, but also again, to be able to create space for adults within the system to understand themselves better, but then also to be able to articulate and, and advocate. And, and again, I think most importantly, this is, this is something that I've always done and, and always appreciated is find community you're not alone. And I think that that's, that's really important. 

RPR: Everything that you said related to ADHD, we could, we could swap out with burnout and it's very, very similar. The stigma attached to it. You don't look weak or different. You can't have conversations about it. So, I mean, I was deeply terrified when I actually had to you do something about it. It was terror moments, right. And, and after I had those conversations with colleagues that I needed to have for my own wellbeing, you know, I had a day of panic attacks because I figured I had ruined something, ruined my reputation by admitting quote, unquote, admitting that I had this problem, quote, unquote problem. So how do we, how do we create psychological safety for faculty and staff, staff absolutely work with our students and, and our, our big support systems for our students as well. How do we make space for having those conversations and finding that community? 

LSB: So that's the big question, right? I'm gonna, now I'm gonna plug my book because I just recently edited book for, oh, I always get it wrong university, Press of the University of Kansas. Is that what it is? 

RPR: I think so. 

LSB: Yeah. Called Affective Labor and Alt Ac Work and basically it encompasses staff and I, and I put out the call about the kinds of affective and emotional labor that staff are doing within higher education. And that's kind of the new so, you know, again like this is how I've sort of worked to create communities is there's a, there's a validation, right? I'm working to validate these conversations as important, but also scholarly and serious, right. By having a university press what I love to do at open access and make it available. Sure. But I also know the importance of having a university press' approval of a book like this. So the individual contributors, for sure. Right. As well saying that I have this publication in a, with a major university press, but also to the audience saying like a major university press is putting this forward. 

And so it gives it legitimacy, right? It gives everyone the legitimacy to, to say, this is an important conversation. This is a legitimate conversation. This is a serious conversation, a scholarly conversation. So one of the things that, that I'm working to do is to try and give it legitimacy through these kinds of ways. But again, and one of the biggest questions that I, that I asked, because I'm doing a companion podcast series, the, with the authors, because of course we put in the manuscript in January of 2020 and then COVID happened. Of course. Um, so yeah, so it was a chance for, I wanted to give a chance. So the contribute reader to go back to what they had written and add anything if they wanted to. Right. And also just to plug and promote the book, you know, and one of you, one of the, one of the questions that I asked at the end is what's next. 

Okay. We've, we're, we're identifying affective labor. We're saying it's important. Everybody's sort of in agreement more or less, right. At least in the book obviously, but like what would you like to see happen next? And then, and then that's, that's the, that's the challenge, right? Like what do we want to see ours institutions do? What kinds of spaces do we want to create? And for me, one of the, one of the things that I'm, you know, I'm torn, right. Because I want to see it recognized. I want to see it discussed. I want to see it legitimized, but I don't want to see it commodified that it becomes just another thing that gets ticked off. Right. We have to, you know, you, you will perform emotional labor, like, and also the whole gendered and racialized expectations around who does it and who doesn't. And it's like, oh my gosh, the, the white male teacher was empathetic, you know? 

And it's like, you weren't empathetic enough, you see that on teacher evals, let's say, and then all of those expectations. So, you know, I I'm sort of torn, like I want to create the space. I want to be able to have these conversations. I want it to be recognized and I want people to be rewarded. You know, I want people to be supportive of it, but that, you know, it's like, so we have a workshop on it. Like I just, I I'm in that space now where I'm, I'm struggling with that question of what's next? What do I want to see at the minimum? I would love to see we do, we do teaching circles and it's kind of like a, I'd like to at least see teaching something like a teaching circle where it is just a space and a place where people can get together and talk about these. 

But then at a certain point, the, you know, you have to identify it, but then you gotta do something about it. Or else is just endless discussion around this topic, a topic that's actually really difficult. Like you can only probably seen this in burnout. You can only talk about burnout so much before it's like, okay, I've gotta talk about what right. And I, you know, again, I'm not sure, like, I, I, that's why I want people to read this book. I want people to take that question and I want to tell them to take it to their institution, to take it to their colleagues and you know, and then report back. Right. Like I would love to do volume two what's next because you know, I think, I think that's the only way that it's gonna change. I don't have, I don't have all the answers. Um, I really wish I did, but by putting something out in the world where it's like, here's at very least the question now let's collectively try to find an answer to it and see what we can come up with and see what works. 

RPR: Yeah. So much of what you're saying is why I, I wrote the burnout book and why I feel like having those conversations are so important that we need to be able to have those conversations. People need to have the language, to have those conversations. They need, we need to be able to manage our own burnout, but we also have to fight the culture that is creating it for us. You know, burnout is a workplace phenomenon. So how do we, how do we make sure that the word is out so that we can have these conversations and build some psychological safety? And you're right about what's next at my institution, I run a, a women+ burnout support group once a month. And we often hear from people who say they want to come, but they're not willing. They're not at, at a place where they can, they can have this conversation yet. And the women that do come, you know, get a lot of comfort from it and can identify with each other and feel like they're not alone. But again, that's a coping strategy, right? That's that's not a systemic change. So what do we do to change that? And it's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately, since the book is mostly about coping strategies, what do we do systemically? I don't have any big answers right now, but it's it's no, but it's gotta be top down and bottom up, I think at the same time. 

LSB: Yep. No, exactly. It's like going back to that top down, bottom up, they were talking about in changes of pedagogy in student learning, right. Where the, you do have to create the space to, to have the conversation. Then you have to build up the momentum. You have to kind of get up that curve. Right. You have to get enough people so that there is momentum. So it's not just you against the world, right. Or a few of you against the world. But then like you said, what, when you get that, that critical mass, right? What are we gonna do with it? Like you said, it's it, they're, it's so big. And so systemic that, like I said, we, we need the entire community in on this. We need everyone's ideas, everyone's work. Everyone's brilliance to be able to, to figure out a solution. And, and I I'm, I'm hopeful. I wouldn't have, I, you know, and I think you are too, we wouldn't have written the books. Right. We wouldn't have be talking about it all the time. You know, this isn't, this isn't doom and gloom. This is like, this is a thing let's, let's look at the thing. Let's acknowledge the thing. Let's admit that the thing is important and big and, and probably bigger than we even realize. But then once we get all of that, then we gotta start the work. Then the real work starts. 

RPR: Yeah, absolutely. I can't wait to read your book. 

LSB: So, so Amazon says April 2nd. Okay. Is it a pre-order I will make sure that, that you have the pre-order link. Absolutely. To put in the show notes. I, the, the companion podcast they're recorded. I just have to edit them. 

RPR: That's the hardest part. 

LSB: I know, like the ADHD, like this is the ADHD brain, right. I gotta do a podcast. And then now I have to re-listen to everything and make decisions and find cut and all that kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that the ADHD brain is like, oh, tune it. Or at least mine, other people are like, I love to edit it. I hate the recording. It just depends. But like, for me, it's my ADHD brain is like, really do we have to? And so I, I tell this story. I have another podcast that I do with my, uh, colleague and friend Aimee Morrison called All the Things ADHD. We're both academics. We're both in our forties. We both got sort of late in life, ADHD diagnoses because our kids got it. And is the, the very, we, we decided, I was like, Hey, look at, because we both got our diagnoses at about the same time as well. 

And so we've been talking and, and that kind of thing. And I'm like, what if we started a podcast? She's like, oh, that'd be great. So it was October, it was ADHD awareness month. That's what sort of sprung it. And we ended up having like a three and a half hour conversation I recorded or, or like two of them or something like that. And then I was like, well, we can't release a three and a half hour on podcast, so I'm gonna have to edit these. Okay. So I, like, I bought a domain, I had set up a installed WordPress. I had everything a year later, ADHD awareness month rolls around again at it. I'm like, huh, we never edited the podcast. Maybe I should do that. So we had a, we have a recording booth at, at, uh, in the university library. We have a lot of great technology. 

And one of the things we have is a recording booth. And so I rented it out. I reserved it. And I, I had leading up to that point during my daughter's ballet classes where it's a nightmare, because it's a cacophony of like seven different studios playing seven different songs on seven different counts in seven different styles. And so I got my noise-canceling headphones, and I sat there during her. This is always to pre COVID. I sat there with my laptop re-listening to all the podcast episodes and like marking down time and like actually being meticulous about these things. And then so had everything organized about where I was gonna cut and what episode was gonna be. I spent five hours in the editing booth back-to-back to back in the true ADHD, hyper focus, you know, the bathroom, forgot to eat, you know, didn't bring enough water. 

And it was like a thousand degrees in there, but I got, 'em all done. I just got, and, and like pushed through at the very end where I was like, come on, I got like more episodes ago, we gotta do this. And then, and then was able to push them out. Now we much more reasonably will typically have a time once a week where we talk for an hour and then like, that's, you know, that's the episode. Sometimes we'll do a little bit longer and I'll just have to make one cut in the middle. But like, we, we learned that, that we can't do three and a half hour conversations that is not sustainable. But yeah, basically I have to find the motivation to do that with these is I have, I actually printed up next to me. I have the printed up, um, sort of rough transcripts, all of them, so I can kinda read through them, see what's there and what's not. 

And then start making some decisions and then probably just block off an afternoon. I don't, if it goes a sound booth anymore, but block off an afternoon, I'm in garage band and just pull these all together. So I'm hoping the plan was that they would come out, leading up to the release of the book. So sort of count backwards the number of weeks before and how many, I don't even know how many episodes I'm gonna end up having, um, count back and then have one done every week leading up to the release. Um, that's, that's the, that's the dream. The reality may that they're released at the same time as the book from April 2nd on again, it's already February next week, and I don't know where time went. So it's, it's the, the behind the scenes of podcasting when it's not your main job. 

RPR: One, I think one of the things that always impresses is me about you is how much content that you generate and how important the content is for folks in higher ed to read. So what's your secret for being productive? Because you podcast, you write for higher ed media, you've got a book coming. What's the secret? 

LSB: Have ADHD and have words be your superpower. My husband often jokes and, and joke long before he's like you have all the words and it is one of those things where the ADHD brain is never quiet. It is never quiet. Like if there's only three things going on in my head, that's a good day. And so it it's one of those things where I've loved writing. I've always written. I, I say in a lot of cases, writing saved my life in a lot of ways where, when I couldn't externalize or articulate what it was, I was feeling what it was I was experiencing when I was being gas lit essentially, because this happens a lot too. You know, you probably know a around burnout as well, but when you're neuro divergence and don't know it, but even sometimes when you do know it, there's a lot of gas lighting in inadvertent at times, obviously, but there's a lot of, no that's not right. 

No, that can't be no, you, you, you don't, you know, you're not experiencing this or you're, you're, there's a lot of invalidation. And so I learned very quickly that writing was one way that I could, but I didn't have control of anything else in my life. I could at least control my writing. Right. And how I wrote and how I narrated, how I narrated my life to myself, through my writing. So they, they say that you, you know, 10,000 hours or whatever it is, I probably got those 10,000 hours done just in high school. Right. Just journaling constantly. And so like it it's in, in the way that in, in the way that there's, there's a, you know, that there's the scene in Good Will Hunting when, um, Matt Damon's character is trying to like explain how he gets math to Skylar, his girlfriend. And he uses the, the idea of like, uh, Beethoven, looking at the piano of his Beethoven side. 

I don't remember. And the like, it just made sense to him. That's how writing feels to me. It just makes sense. And so it is my hyper focus. It is my superpower. It's something that I can I'm. And again, I've also had to learn that I can't take the usual writing advice. Right. It's like write every day and set aside time and keep a routine. And that's like, that's the ADHD nightmare. And so I had to learn and be okay with I word vomit. They say, oh, don't word vomit. Nope. I have to word vomit. That's how I, I get all that content out. I word vomit. I also am very good at letting it go now, which wasn't always the case where it's like, I'm gonna write something. And once it's written, I'm like, it's done. Right. Like you were saying about the podcast. 

Sometimes you just want to do that. And I, you know, I've learned to work with editors that I trust and outlet that I trust so that I know that there is going to be someone there who is going to edit my work to, in order to make it better. Right. That this is editing is not my strength. I, you know, I'm not as good as editing is particularly in my own stuff. And so I've learned that it's like, yeah, I've gotta surround myself with people who are good at these things and who will help my writing be better and trust that they're gonna do it. So I can just be like, okay, it's done. I'm not gonna stress out over it. I'm just gonna send it to the editor and then we can have a conversation around it. So, and that's hard for a lot of people. 

A lot of people will not press send. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. So like every word is perfect and I'm like, nah, it's good enough. Good enough is also my mantra. It's just like is good enough. Um, you know, this is, it's not gonna be perfect. So that's, that helps as well. But it's also just the like again, that sort of having multiple things going on. So it's like, you know, I tried it once. I actually did try it once where, um, when I got my job at University of Mary Washington, so I worked there, um, for a few years and it was by far like the biggest opportunity that I'd ever had. I was working at DTLT division of teaching and learning technologies. We were working on domain of one zone. We were looking at all of these like really cool things that I was gonna be able to do. 

And I still didn't have my diagnosis. And I said, you know what, I'm letting everything else go. I'm not gonna stop the freelance. I'm gonna stop all of this stuff. I'm just going to focus my attention on my job. And I was miserable because I needed all of that other external stimuli in a way that I, I mean, you could say it's external validation. It's also a dopamine hit and that's what my ADHD brain wants. But it's also that I have so many different interests and so many different things. I want to talk about things I want to explore. And so giving myself outlets for those where I don't necessarily, I have certain parts of my job and, and are very, very fulfilling, but it doesn't fulfill all the things that I'm interested in, all the things that I want to do. And so I, I create those opportunities and opportunities sort of help nourish me. 

Like again, my husband always says is like the busier you are the happier you are. Right. And, and it is true. And I, I learned, I actually learned that the hard way. Not that not that I don't hit a wall occasionally, cause that's the other thing ADHD people do, we do too much. And they're just like, ah, but again, like as I, as I know the diagnosis now of ADHD, as I understand it better, as I understand myself better through the lens of my neuro divergence, I'm now able to better understand and control my energy levels, understand what my limitations are. I'm at a point in my career where I can say no to things, again, I'm at a point in my career for my writing, with my writing that I can, I can pick and choose, right. So I can shoot, you know, I'm not trying to shoot it off and to be like, I need to get a chapter published. 

I need to get something published. It's like, I don't need to get anything published. So I'm only going to write the things that I really think are important, but also put them in outlets and in spaces with people that, that align with my values and that I trust, right. Who are going to do the right thing by my writing, but also just like, they're gonna be a pleasure to work with. Like I just, I like working with them. I know them either socially or reputationally. And so I'm gonna work with them because that's something I want to do as opposed to the other sort of motivation around publishing, which is like, I just have to publish something. And so there was something when I went alt a and when I really said, okay, the tenure track isn't for me, it was really liberating because it, it was really like, I don't have to write anymore. 

I gonna write what I want to write. And I'm not gonna worry that people are like, blogs don't count. Podcasting is silly. Right. And this was again, 10 years ago, now everybody has a podcast. But, but yeah, I mean, the, I was able to let all of those worries go because it's like, I don't have to stress about a podcast, not or a, a blog post or a blogging, not count. Like it counts, it matters. It might not matter to the tenure and promotion committee, but like, I don't have to answer to them anymore. So screw you guys. I gotta write what I want. And that's, you know, again, that was a really liberating factor as well, to being able to sort of channel my energies in a place where it mattered to me rather than the place where I, I thought they wanted me to be, or that I needed to be. 

RPR: I love that. And I really connected that too. I left a tenure track two and a half years ago. I had tenure. And it was, it was liberating in the sense that I'm gonna do this writing because I want to, I, I don't need this book to get promoted to full or anything like that. I just feel like it's important and I will want to get it out there. So, and there's not, there's stress associated with that, of course, but it's, you know, the power of what you're writing and the power of what you're putting out is crucial to our, to our community. Right. And making sure that our community is looking at, um, these important issues from different angles. 

LSB: Yep. Oh yeah. And I think that there's a, and you know, there's, and I, I do weigh things now, like I said, with Kansas publishing at Kansas, right. It's like, okay, I write for the Chronicle of Higher Education. Okay. I do that. And everybody's like, oh, pay wall. Uh, you know, I, I can't access your work and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, yeah. But if I don't publish in Chronicle of Higher Education people, aren't gonna take it seriously. So there I do, I still do some of these trade offs, right. Where I want to, I'll send a PDF of it, who, whoever asks me for it, all the, you know, all the time. But I, and, and I really like my editor there, my editor there is, is phenomenal. And I owe her something it's just been busy, but, but again, like these are, these are kind of the factors that I'm saying. 

I'm like, okay, I have a really great editor. She knows my voice and, and always makes my writing better. And it gets to an important audience will give it more legitimacy because I have published it in chronical, higher education, important factors. And that does a lot of work for our community is for the community as well. Right. Is that this shows up in a, if it shows up in the print issue, I had one thing show up in a print issue. And I'm like, that is the gold standard. Right. That's what the administrators read. That's, what's sitting there in their office, they the Chronicle. And so I'm like, these are, these are important things that, that need to be done. But if I didn't have a good editor, I wouldn't like push it. Right. I would be like, I will find another place to put my writing. Um, but it so happens that I have a really good editor as well. And I like, okay, I, I like publishing here and it's good for the community that I, I do. 

RPR: And it's great advice to work with an editor if you can, if you really want to get, oh yeah. Your, your writing or your work out there having an editor. I mean, my editor at John Hopkins is amazing and I couldn't have finished the book without his support and, and his suggestions. So if you, if you have a good editor and you build a relationship with them, it's your work will be better. Absolutely better. 

LSB: Yeah. And the flip side of that is if you don't have a good editor walk away. 

RPR: Yeah. Agreed. 

LSB: Right. Um, you know, I've, I've, I've had a friend who like, it's not that they were a bad editor. They just didn't see eye to eye on the vision of the book. And I was just like, at this point, you just have to pull it and go elsewhere because this is, it's not working. You're miserable. Sure. They're miserable. You, you don't need this. And, and again, that's a position of privilege because it's somebody who didn't need it. Right. Like, you know, as for, for a, for a, a junior scholar or a graduate student or something like, you just feel like you need that book. There are, there are other editors, there are better editors. There are, you know, and, and that's the, uh, there are other opportunities, right. Might not feel like there's a huge publishing landscape right now, but there's a huge publishing landscape really Is. 

Yeah. Right. It really is. And there's there's space for that. And there are people, you know, there are people out there who will get your voice and get what it is that you're trying to do. And they will help nurture it rather than trying to turn it into something that it isn't. And it can be hard to find those people, but when you do, it's phenomenal, right. Like it just it's, you're writing sings, the ideas sing and it just, it, the it's so much the, the end product is gonna be so much more resonant as well because it'll come through in the writing and because the readers. 

RPR: Yeah, absolutely. I want to take a mini detour and I want to talk about your amazing sewing habit, your amazing sewing hobby. 

LSB: If you can, I know this is a podcast, but behind me is actually my sewing nook. Love it. Um, in here that I just sort of flashed and that's, uh, I'm very proud of it. This is the most organized I am in my life. Very clear. Yeah, it is. And I like, I, I I'm constantly refining it too. Right. Like I just put up baskets on the wall to like organize my printed patterns. That's a big deal for me. Like I usually things are just in piles. Yeah. Right. If you look at my desk, my desk is just piles, but like my sewing stuff, I've got it like a little bit better organized and everything. Yeah. It was something, it was a pandemic hobby. It was late in the pandemic. It wasn't like the first thing that I did, I tried the bread thing and was like, eh, I was proud that I made it. 

I didn't think I'd be able to. And I was like, Hey, it's great. But for the amount and I had a really easy recipe too, that it was, but it, again, this is the ADHD thing. It takes time. So it's this no need bread. That's really easy. So it's like yeast, water, flowered needs sit. So you have to wait for 24 hours, but then you have to do something and then it's two hours and then you have to preheat something and then it's four hours. So like you get this wonderful loaf of bread, but it takes 24 hours to do a little bit more than 24 hours to do. And the kids finish it in eight seconds. And then if, well, if I want fresh bread every day, then I have to think 24 hours in advance to like do. And it's like, no, I just, I CA this is too much even for easy bread, but it's just like those steps and the pauses in the coming and remembering and setting timers and all that kind of stuff. 

Whereas with sewing it it's, it's funny. Like the, the thing that you do the least in sewing is actually sewing. That's true. There are true, so many different activities, right? So there's, there's the, now it's all printed patterns like that you get on PDF and you have to assemble them, which I love doing because it's the easiest puzzle in the universe and printers don't do their job. Right. Still they have one job and they can't do it. And so even though every piece is supposed to align perfectly, they never do. Right. So you, you tape it all and then you cut it and then you have to pick the fabric and then you play and cut the fabric and then you have to start assembling it. And then, so you're pinning and you're sewing and you're, you're, you're pressing. And then you feel like it's like, all right, now, so this same zoom, all right, it's done. 

Now I have to do 10 more minutes of prep work, just so like for 30 more seconds. And then your machine, the thread runs out or it gets caught and stuff. And you just, but, but there's enough sort of different activities. And you're constantly going from one thing to another, to another, to another, in these kind of bite size bits that, um, just really, like, I never thought it would appeal to me. Um, but it's really appealing to me. And the other thing that I realized as I was going through this is that this is the first thing that I'm doing. That is only just entirely for me. No one in my family has any interest in me, sewing clothes for them. It's fine. Um, you know, I am doing this strictly for me. I make a piece of clothing for myself that I want to make and the fabric I want to make it and the style, I want to make it, all that kind of stuff. And it's just for me, you know, and yeah, I blog about it because that's who I am, but I don't care if people read the blog or not. I'm just there. It's also just sort of a record of what I've made, you know? And so it, it was really, I want to say it's probably one of the most selfish things I've ever done, which kind of feels nice. Yeah. And it's not hurting anyone. It's not selfish in a bad way. I mean, okay. It's hurting in our bank account. 

RPR: It's like the knitters who are always buying. 

LSB: No. Oh no. Yeah. Husband's like, why are you buying more fabric? Why are You buying more patterns? 

RPR: I'm like, I'll have to introduce you to my sister. 

LSB: Possibly. Yeah. All of these dresses or all of these outfits. Are you ever gonna use all this time? I don't know. Maybe 

RPR: Could happen, right? Yeah. Could it could happen maybe.  

LSB: I'll I I'll, I'll try love it. And then my brain's like challenge Accepted. Um, awesome. My Husband's like, oh, my kids are like, oh God. Oh, They, they know now they're like, is it more fabric, mom? I'm like, they're like, mom, I don't need any more fabric. I'm like, I might… 

RPR: Well, I'm sorry to have to wrap this up. It's been such a lovely conversation. Do you want to just take a minute and plug your podcasts or your books, so folks know where to find them. 

LSB: Yeah. And I'll, I'll give you all of these links for the show notes. Great. Um, so, uh, one thing that I didn't get the plug yet, um, when with the writing question, which is relevant, is that just recently, this came out in the, uh, rhetoric, digital rhetoric and composition journal Kairos. It was interview with myself writing with ADHD. And so I did it in this, uh, digital platform called Twine and made it kind of like a choose your own adventure, but you can randomize everything. And I really try to explain what it, what writing is for me and what my writing process is while also trying to emulate the experience of having ADHD With the twine. And so I'm really, really proud of it. It's, it's probably the most me I have ever been in my writing, um, and my work. And, uh, I'm just really excited about it. And so I'll give, I'll drop a link to that in there. Awesome. Affective Labor and Alt Ac Careers from Kansas is again, coming out, according to am Amazon, April 2nd in the I'll in the show notes, I'll make sure that there's a link at least to the Kansas page. If you want to look for it on Amazon, go ahead. But I'll give you the canvas university press very reasonably priced 24 95. Like not gonna, yeah, no, I know. I was like, yes, yes. And then the podcast, uh, I'll give a link to, I don't even remember the site now that I made for the podcast because ADHD, but I will put a link to the website where the podcast is gonna live. 

But once it's there, it'll be on all of the major podcasting networks and you us today, uh, it's Friday, today. And so this morning, a new episode after a, uh, holiday break, um, a new episode of All the Things ADHD just dropped. And you can find that, just search “All the Things ADHD” on any of your podcasting platforms, that's it. But you can also go to all the things, adhd.com and that's where you can find it. And, uh, it's, it's a lot of fun. So that's, and I'll make sure all of that gets sent and is in the show notes. So you can just click on it rather than having to, you know, use Google because that's one step too far. If you listen to the podcast, you know, there's one too many steps naming our out. We're like too many steps also why we never ask anyone to write our podcast because we know they never will. And we don't want to make them feel bad for not doing it because they ADHD. 

RPR: Well, it's been great. It's been great chatting with you, Lee. Thanks so much for your time today. 

LSB: You're welcome. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Okay. 

RPR: Take care. 

Thanks for listening to this episode of the agile academic podcast for women in higher ed. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did to make sure you don't miss an episode. Follow the show on apple, Google, or Spotify podcasting apps and bookmark the show. You'll find each episode, a transcript and show notes theagileacademic.buzzsprout.com. Take care and stay well.