the agile academic

Fatimah Williams on Careers, Curiosity, and Entrepreneurship

June 21, 2021 Rebecca Pope-Ruark Season 2 Episode 4
the agile academic
Fatimah Williams on Careers, Curiosity, and Entrepreneurship
Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of the agile academic podcast, I sit down with Dr. Fatimah Williams, founder of Beyond the Tenure Track, a professional development and career-planning firm for graduate students and PhDs. We talk about life and work beyond academia, staying curious while networking, and being an entrepreneur.

On this episode of the agile academic podcast, I sit down with Dr. Fatimah Williams, founder of Beyond the Tenure Track, a professional development and career-planning firm for graduate students and PhDs. We talk about life and work beyond academia, staying curious while networking, and being an entrepreneur.

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Hello listeners. Welcome to the agile academic, a podcast for women in and around higher education. This season, I talked by special guests from all over academia, about a wide range of topics from teaching and research to coaching and mental health, to vitality and burnout and everything in between. 

I'm your host, Dr. Rebecca Pope-Ruark. 

This season is brought to you by my summer monthly sprint beats. Learn the basics of scrum project management to organize your work. Spend a week focused on a project with the encouragement and support of a group of other faculty, and take time to reflect on your accomplishments and next steps, learn more at www.rebeccapoperuark.com/sprintweeks

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Rebecca Pope-Ruark (RPR): I'm so excited to have on the show, Dr. Fatimah Williams. So thanks for being with me today, Fatimah. 

Fatimah Williams (FW): Thank you so much. I cannot wait to jump in. 

RPR: Why don't you just tell the audience a little bit about yourself first, and then we can dive into some of the, the rich stuff that we've already been talking about before we started recording. 

FW: So my name is Fatimah Williams, and I'm the founder of Beyond the Tenure Track, and Beyond the Tenure Track is an organization that helps academics to find, um, and kind of secured new leadership opportunities and new career opportunities. And particularly we've really been focused on how to help academics transition out of academia or to new levels of leadership. And so I've enjoyed doing that work for gosh now, like six, seven years, and just kind of expanding into new areas as well, that really support the academic more holistically. 

RPR: That's something that we've, especially in this time of COVID really thinking about, we've seen the statistics about people thinking about leaving academia and thinking about what their, what their roles look like in the future and what their lives look like in the future. Having had this specific kind of wake-up call over the last year or so. So the work that you do is really important as you continue to help folks kind of think that through. So tell us a little bit about your academic journey and how you ended up coaching. 

FW: Yeah. So this is, it's so interesting, especially as like time and space kind of continues to put more, more distance between me and the PhD, but I, um, got my doctorate at Rutgers university and cultural anthropology and about 2011. Um, and I just, you know, I remember being on the academic job market and being kind of, you know, celebrated graduate student, but being on the academic job market and being really fortunate at that time, right around the economic downturn of 2008 and really seeing like, I'm really grateful that I have these opportunities to be interviewing at different universities and somewhere deep down, like really knowing that this was not for me. I felt like even though I was at institutions that were very supportive, um, collegial, they were offering all kinds of supports to either, you know, have research funds or just things that, you know, that you need as a junior scholar to really get going. 

And I just couldn't help but think that this didn't feel like the best expression or of me, right. So not that it is not a lofty worthy or great expression. It just did not feel like it would give me the channel to really express what I really had on the inside of me and the, my favorite skills that I really wanted to use. I felt like in order to really use the skills that I had in to really be more of myself, I would need to be post-tenure and not because my research was super radical or anything like that, but more about, I found academia to be a space that did not allow me to feel self-expressed. So the curiosity was very confined. The pathways for innovation and creativity were either confined or very long arcs to being able to see results or see, you know, anonymously, even talking about impact in like big societal ways, but to see a project from beginning to end. 

And so I just had to recognize that I was not feeling in alignment with the work that I was doing and that I'd been trained to do. And so for me, that meant, uh, resending an offer for a really amazing post-doc, uh, and choosing to take a job at a nonprofit. And it was one of the best experiences and probably one of the toughest experiences ever, but that the key there is not so much that it was a nonprofit, but what worked for me is that I felt like I was more aligned because it was more of a startup environment. I just came in at the point of this group, having created a strategic plan. And my job was to really put life to this strategic plan, develop the partnerships advocate for the work that we were doing at the, at the county level and state level, um, and really gather people and then be the mouthpiece for this particular work that we were doing at a high level, as well as, and high-level in terms of decision-making as well as the community level. And that felt good to me. It felt collaborative, it felt active, but also cerebral. And I needed that. I needed both of those things, especially after what felt like a lonely, um, doctoral period. 

RPR: Hear that from a lot of of PhDs now in graduate students, that, that it's a very lonely process when you're going through graduate school, you're being judged constantly, right? Because you you're being judged according to publication records or getting publications. Every, every promotion step that you get is a judgment of a large group of peers. And that's, uh, that competitive environment can feel very, very lonely sometimes. And then you do get your junior, let's say you do get your junior faculty role there's competition there too. And it can be very stressful and very lonely. Um, what do you think are some ways that academia might deal with that culturally? 

FW: You know, it's interesting because for me, I mean, I think the competition piece is really it's important, but I, for me, what was most, um, felt most isolating was that thinking happened in solitary ways, right? So there's, there's ways that you can think and brainstorm and develop ideas, um, at different stages of your ideation. Right. But do that collectively with others. And I just didn't see many outlets for that. And what are, what do our outlets look like in academia? Maybe if you're a graduate student, it looks like round tables or brown bags that, you know, graduate students might lead and maybe faculty join in, or a faculty are observing perhaps even in your grad classes, but not so much really to get deeper into your own research. Right. So there's just not a lot of ways. And then it's national conferences perhaps, which are costly. 

And I don't think that that's the best stage to really be initiating the sort of collaborative thinking or getting critical feedback, um, on papers. And so it would tend to be at, at junctures that really were high stakes, right? So defending a master's thesis or comprehensives or orals at the space of writing a paper that was a big one and you get it back and then you get all the comments that are, that maybe in discussion, you would have developed your ideas in a more forward-thinking way or just with a more critical eye or more knowledge. Right. And so for me, the challenge with academia is that it, on the one hand, it is a space of ideas, but I don't know that those ideas have the best environment to grow flourish and, and to evolve. Right. So I think that the other challenge with it, for me is that those spaces that you do have to talk about your work as it's information, there's a lot of posturing that happens, right? 

So you have to look like the good grad student, or you have to look like the faculty member. That's got it all together and you're waiting. And I coach faculty. So I know this waiting a little bit too late to get eyes on it. And then you don't, you feel like it has to be at a certain standard to even be able to share it. And so I think there's gotta be a way to take down, you know, even the competition, I don't mind so much, but the, this isolation and to create new pathways for collaborative work or for socializing of ideas in real and authentic ways. Right. So that the student can actually hear critical feedback and not wonder is this because my research is different. Is this because I'm researching communities of color or I'm doing something that this department hasn't quite seen yet, or no one does it in this way. Right. And the same thing with faculty, they have a space to be able to hear feedback that's authentic and that's well-positioned. And so I just think there's just a lot of, a lot of challenges for me with that in academia. 

RPR: I'm now at a technical Institute. So I'm at Georgia Tech now. And I see, I see the differences now between collaboration, the way the sciences collaborate and the way the humanities and the social sciences collaborate sometimes. And that's not to say that it's always a healthy collaboration in the sciences, right? But the labs are bigger. The ideas depend on the intersection of different types of work. And that, that hope the scientific method and the empiricism of that work at least gives a little bit of that, that sense of collaboration and less isolation possibly. But I think there's also a sense I had this sense that there was always this tension about being afraid. You were going to get scooped, right. That someone was going to get your, get the research out before you, I'm wondering if you see any of that in the folks that you work with. 

FW: I do. I mean, I think that is lesser of their concerns. I think the concerns that I tend to see are more around, you know, leadership, how to take on new leadership roles. I see a lot of uncertainty around how to set boundaries and not even realizing that the challenges that are there are often because they don't know how to set boundaries. We tend to think about boundaries as, you know, do I say yes or no to this opportunity or to this request. And I actually like to think about boundaries more as do I know who I am. What's important to me right now in terms of my work and where I'm going, because when I know those things, the yes or no comes more naturally because I find that my own projects are worthwhile enough to protect and to do so from a place of authenticity and not from a place of reaction, right. 

I'm reacting to, oh my gosh, how dare they want more of my time? Or, oh my gosh, they keep asking me more things. Well, of course we were going to ask you more things. You're great. You do a great job. Maybe you've always said yes, because you haven't found your boundaries yet. So those are the things that I see more often, but to the point of, you know, the, the scooping, I do think that that's, I don't want to minimize it. That's important, but I think it kind of works the same way comparison does, if we're watching what others are doing and how they're using or taking work or developing their work, then that means that we're, we've divided our attention from what we need to get done. And so my thing is, you know, there's enough room for all of us. I truly believe that. And I think we get into a scarcity, a sense of scarcity as if there's only enough or just so much for everyone, when the ways that we're going to do our work are different. The spaces that we're going to go for funding may or may not be different, but the ways we approach it will be different. And so I think that's just a piece of anxiety that you just don't need. You know, you can eliminate an anxiety is like, let's pull them off the table. 

RPR: Hello, the idea of connecting to values, right? What, who am I, what do I value? And in my work, I tend to talk about four components, kind of four resilience, pillars of purpose, compassion, connection, and balance. And then I think purpose is really important to what you're saying. And it sounds like the kind of coaching you do really does help your clients think about what's the purpose? What values are they, are they exhibiting? Or do they want to have?

FW: Yeah. So it's, you know what it is the core of everything. So I'm working often with people who are at a career transition moment. They're either trying to decide if academia is still a good fit for them, or as I like to have them think about it, maybe it's just, is your role still a good fit for you? Because we tend to kind of look at the whole institution rather than realizing that maybe what's not working is where you are, or it's the seat that you're sitting in, where you are. Right. And there's other seats to sit in. And so I try to pull away from this academic versus non-academic dichotomy because there's other, there's so many expressions of how one can do work that you enjoy, even when you've been trained and working for some time as a faculty member. And so what helps people to clear away expectations and should. 

And all of that is for me, is to get back to the foundations of who are you today? What's working for you right now, what is not working for you any longer, because then we can stop thinking about, well, do I fit in this bucket or not? It comes back to me, the individual, right? You, the individual, what do I need to feel? Whether it's fulfilled, maybe your word to be in purpose, to be in alignment, to feel like I'm working on something that's worthwhile to me, or at least that works with my life plan and how I want to use my time, my skills, my energy. And so I'm always bringing it back. I think you're so right on having like purpose as a pillar, because it really is about who am I today, who I was when I made this decision to do the work that I'm doing right now is not the person I am. 

And that doesn't mean that my, you know, I need to jump industries or do anything radically different, but it may mean that I need to come to this work with a different mindset, with a different, a different sense of belonging, a different sense of taking up space and a way of requesting I need. And I work with academic women who have they've done their role well, and then they hit a moment where either it's, well, you've spent too much time on service or mentoring and not enough time on publications or you have been publishing, but we don't know if this work is quite, you know, up to where we want it to be in the department forever. Or it's just, the faculty member has done a really great job and they've hit all those milestones and have gotten acceptance from their peers and still feels like something is off. 

And so in that I'm really, it is so important to me that the decisions that my clients make are based in who they are and what they want, not based on a system of just following the rules or following the very next step, because let's say I worked with someone recently, uh, she's associate professor being offered, uh, administrative role. And she'd kind of practiced a bit in that role for the last year and really felt like, you know, I don't know if I want it. There's some things that are really great here. Um, you know, as a woman of color, it would have been a really great role for her to have some decision-making authority to really represent some experiences that she'd seen on campus. Um, and she wasn't sure. And when we got down to the bottom of it, it was because she was looking at the position as I have to take it exactly as it was handed to me versus I get to be in discussion about what works here for me and actually what I can lend to this that is unique to me that they would not even know to ask me for. 

Right. But it's in that moment of working with a coach that can kind of help you to surface, how do you want to make this your own? If in fact, you do want to make it your own, but we had to get through that barrier of, oh, I don't know. And the, the immediate being really, if you could see my hands now, it's like, oh my gosh, he ends up. I don't think I want this. I'm not sure. Right. We go into this kind of reaction mode and it's like, well, let's, let's take it apart. So at least we can make a decision and you can be positioned to make a decision that actually suits who you are. 

RPR: I think there's also a, an element of the fear of missing out. If I say no to this, will I ever be asked again, or will, will I regret that decision? Or will I regret trying to negotiate, right. Will that put me in a different light? I think about when you talk about purpose and who you are today, I think about the, the principle in yoga that you are where you are today and maybe different than you were yesterday. Everyone else is at their own different point. There's no comparison. Our bodies are doing what our bodies will do right now. And that's where we stay. And that's where we keep centered. 

FW: You know, even with that, so I think this, this fear still goes back to the idea that opportunities are finite. They're not, they just aren't that just isn't how the world works, right? I mean, it may not be the same thing that comes around, but certainly you keep doing your work and you keep producing. And I don't even mean that from the sense of like, just being productive, I mean, just live. And someone's going to ask you to do something else because there's always things that need to be done in an organization, either at your current organization or at another one. And so when we make decisions from a space of there's not enough, or it won't happen again, or if I negotiate, will I get what I want? Will they see me? Oh, I had a client recently say to me, I just don't want them to see me as a bitch. 

You know? And I'm like, so you rather be seen as a workhorse and you'd rather have to figure out how to make these competing things work. When, you know, you already know, because you've said it it's going to have adverse effects on your health or that your time with your family, that, you know, you have children at a certain point in their development that you want time with whatever it is. And so I think when we have this idea that advocating for ourselves is somehow going to lead to an adverse and almost definite or permanent result, we've bought into the idea that there's, there is no more opportunity available or that we cannot shape the opportunity that is in front of us. 

RPR: Academia doesn't teach us to be content with anything, right? It's, there's always a next step or a next jump that we're expected to. There's no, I'm happy here as an associate professor, I'm happy teaching my classes. I don't feel that I need to go to full professor, for example, as, as, as a, as an example, that it's, it's a sense of expectation escalation constantly, the more competent you are, the more you do get asked to do things. And the more you do have to make those decisions and set those boundaries and the harder that becomes, I think, as you move on in your career, when you get, when you're so indoctrinated into higher education and that, that mindset of expectation escalations. 

FW: Yeah. I mean, you know, what pressure, what pressure really. And so this for me is why coaching is important and having certain practices are important. So even with the genius retreat that I hold, I've been really particular, even as we're planning for the next one. So we had our first one in December, which you spoke at, which was amazing. People are still talking about your, your session, um, and how much they get out of working with you. So I'm just super excited that you were able to do that and share with them. But one of the things that I, I really wanted to keep as a staple and we do this on the first day, it is a goal setting and planning conference. But what we first do is we have a special way we do it, but we talk about what we have and we claim it all the personal and the professional. 

We claim the progress, the milestones and the completion. And I think that's really important because, and I don't think this is particular to academia. I think this is anyone who is in a space where you're achieving, you're working, you're moving, you're not complacent, and you're not in a space of sabbatical arrests, right. That we tend to consistently, we're always looking for what is the next thing or working on the next thing. And we don't realize that the building blocks that we put in place three months ago are what's allowing us to get this other thing off the ground, right? So that's one of the pieces that we do. And I have them bring in evidence of the thing. Not because we don't believe each other, but I want them to see evidence of their own progress. And so we have people share amazing things like everything from, you know, one woman said, I read 30 books by women of color authors last year fiction and nonfiction. 

And that was important to her as an academic to have put fiction as well as nonfiction together. Right? So my joys and also the work joys, my personal joys and the work joys and everything from wow. I submitted my book proposal to one woman had gone diving. She learned to dive over the past six months. Right? So all of it matters. Um, and I think what academia does not do a great job at is helping us to see ourselves as holistic, right? The personal and the professional are not separate. They cannot be because if we don't feel the person and we don't feel the wellbeing of the person, then we're automatically cutting our legs off from us with how we can create great work. So that's, that's something that definitely I'm, I'm committed to helping people see themselves because I can see it as a coach, right. I can see where the negative self-talk is coming in. And, but my job is not to tell you how great you are. I want you to see it for yourself. 

RPR: That's so empowering for coaching, for coaching clients. Right? When we talk about coaching, we talk about our clients, having an investment in themselves to really the, the answers are in there. They're in them. We just try to ask the right questions and offer the right suggestions. If that's what the client needs. How did you find coaching and move into this space? 

FW: You know, I did not know that I was coaching. I started by offering workshops on career transition specifically from grad. So after your grad degree, when you're thinking, if not academia, then what, and I just did a ton of research. And I started presenting and with presenting on different campuses with different groups, I realized that my style was a coaching style. And then I began to take coaching courses, be coached to myself and, and different areas. So not particularly in the area of career, although I did do career coaching, I received career coaching at some point in my career, but I realized that that was my unique value. Add when you come to my workshops, I am, whether they're in-person or virtual, I am about drawing out what's in you. I'm not just about engagement. Like my way of engaging the audience is through these, these questions that will draw out of you and helping you to reframe. 

And so I just noticed that that was my value add. And so then I lead into how do I do more of this and how do I support people? Um, and from there, it, you know, people think about coaching as one-on-one, but I actually find that for one of my areas of work, it's actually beneficial to have them in a group session and a group format. So when we do my Options4Success course, which is the career transition. If you're considering what next, um, if academia may not be for you or at least the current role you're in is not for you, it's a group format. And so you're in there with other people who are asking similar questions and sourcing information, and you're able to work together on that and to find your, and it's a, it's a safe community, which is the other thing, because there's people at the same level with the same kinds of questions, but different fields. And so there's a level of collegiality that that's there for the people that are involved. 

RPR: I think group coaching is a really powerful experience. I, I enjoy working with clients individually, but I think there is so much potential in small group workshops. Like you said, my, I ran my burnout group once. So it's a, it's a six week program to help women faculty think about burnout and what's beyond burnout. And that was one of the most powerful experiences that I've ever had. The women were honest with each other, they were vulnerable with each other and they felt safe to do that because they each knew that they were bringing their own situation, but they were not alone in that particular feeling or that particular issue that they were experiencing as a coach. Sometimes you just kind of sit back in a group and they coach each other and they build, they build each other up and they empower each other, even when it's just, you're not alone. I feel what you're feeling. Thank you for sharing that with me. I value what you're talking about right now. And I honor that it's, I see that in to a lesser extent with writing groups too, but the support is just so powerful in ways that you don't necessarily get broadly in a one-on-one coaching relationship, which is just a different kind of animal. 

FW: Yeah. And I don't do as much one-on-one coaching anymore. I really prefer the program format. Um, one, it also allows people to have a bit of flexibility in how they tap into the information, particularly because the way that program, the Options4Success works, it's really transferring information and then coaching. So it's a bit of kind of course, and coaching together, but yeah, I enjoy the format. It also makes it where once we get together and dig beyond the foundations that I'm teaching, we really get to explore together. So, you know, we really get to maximize that time that we have together in our meetings. 

RPR: I'm wondering also I I'm in, I'm in several communities where they're academic, mostly women who are interested in more entrepreneurial ventures, whether that's moving out of academia to their own kind of entrepreneurial or whether that's being entrepreneurial as a side gig or within their institution. So what was that journey like as you were thinking about founding the organization, your organization, and, and that, that process?

FW: I started when I, when I left the nonprofit work I was doing, it was kind of another like transition moment for me. I just realized I am my mother, mother's an entrepreneur, my father at one stage in my, my childhood. He was also an entrepreneur. I realized that I just needed the space to create and kind of do this on my own and figure some things out. And I just said, you know, if I ever want to go back into the workforce, um, more formally, I shouldn't say formally, cause I get paid to do what I do and I, you know, live and make a living from it and have a team. But, um, if I wanted to join back up with an organization that was not my own, that that's always available to me. Um, but I first started seeking out spaces that would help teach me about money, um, and money in a new way. 

Um, so how to understand my time and value for time and how to structure offers. Because a lot of times we start with, I have this idea and I just want to get the idea out, but we don't think about the fact that it takes money to run the idea. So even coaching, you have to be on a format of some sort, are we going to be on, you know, then I was, I was not using zoom, but is it zoom? Is it some other format? What are we going to use as a tool to help us communicate any work or worksheets that you're doing in between time? Right? So there's, there's costs built into it, not just my own time, but also just cost that's built into it. My thinking time to, to create what I'm, how I am tailoring things for, you know, each client and their, their role or what their needs are. 

And so I needed to better understand that. And then I also started talking to people who were ahead of me, um, who had consulting businesses. And I looked at the businesses. I did not like, and I did not want to repeat, um, either because I felt like the person worked really hard and I didn't understand why they worked so hard, but seem to be struggling. And the person who did really well for themselves, but had a S you know, too much of a, for me too much of a solo mentality to the larger consulting firms that I would work with them. And for them to learn better, like just different models. I wanted to see how I could model my organization. Um, and that has changed over the years and kind of we're in that right now, but it's, it's shifted over time, but that's certainly something that I needed to do. 

I needed to see models and I needed to create a model that worked best for me, because I know that I want to serve the people that my content will help, but I also need to do it in a way that allows me to come to it authentically and at my best energy. And so those are some of the things that I did. And then just learning more about back of system, back-of-office systems, you know, how to make things, talk to each other properly. So calendars to payments, to invoicing, to right, these things that are administrative that can take away a lot of our time. And so for me, it was discovering while doing and practicing while being a part of other people's organizations. So I consulted for a while with one of my mentors, two of them, they run a very large, um, successful consulting firm, not in the area that I worked in, but I learned how to manage high-level clients. I learned how to work with federal contracting and, you know, working on projects with the NIH and with other organizations, I learned how to do that. And so it taught me the same time that it helped me to kind of build out my own. 

RPR: And stepping back a second to what you said about, you know, finding people to talk to and, and mentors in different ways of, of understanding different models. I think that resonates with my other pillar about connection. How do you, how do you network, how has networking not a dirty word? I think, you know, we think about it in academia as what we do at conferences, right? Or, 

FW: Oh, it feels like a bed speed date. 

RPR: Everyone's looking at everyone's chest to see the, the name tag to see if it's someone they want to talk to you or not. If it's kind of embarrassing. Different setting. So let's talk a little bit about that. Networking. How would you encourage, especially women in higher ed who are maybe considering some entrepreneurial act activities to think about networking or connecting with others? Yeah. 

FW: This is my jam. I love this one. This is because we, like you said, we have this idea about networking. That for most of us is so inauthentic. It is not natural. It's not how we, how we communicate. And a lot of academic women, you know, maybe not, I sit a lot, not all right, but are also a bit more thoughtful, introspective and sometime introverted. Right. And so how do you enter a space of networking and do so authentically? One of the big things I talk about first, it comes back to who am I? And am I interested in right now? That is the most authentic space you can come from. You don't have to posture there. You don't have to have all the answers there. You can be in curiosity and an exploration, and it actually kind of makes you interesting. Right? It's like, it makes you more interesting to talk to when you can say, yeah, here's the work that I do. 

And I'm really interested in trying out this thing, or I'm, I have this idea about what do you think about it? And just letting it roll, let people play with it, let them ask you questions. That's about it. You'll learn a lot from those questions. It doesn't always feel good because people will ask you questions of things that you feel like, oh, I should've thought about that already. Or, oh my gosh, they don't, they don't see a viable market with this idea. Or, you know, does that mean my idea's bad? Or does it mean I just, or, or not viable? Or does it mean I, I can express it differently or maybe I need to find other people who understand the market better. Right. It could be any number of things, but starting from a place of what am I trying to accomplish. And what's interesting to me right now to be exploring, what am I trying to create? 

If you stand in that and then start talking to people who are either already creating the thing that you're doing, or they're serving people who will want to create, right? So even organizations like a score, you know, they're all around the country. They have free mentors. Um, it may not be the end, all be all for everyone, but there's certainly many organizations like this that are a free place to start. You know, it's, it's just being able to go in and have authentic conversations about where you are, what you're looking to do. And when you start there, you don't have to pretend to know more than, you know, and you don't have to pretend to have it all together. You really can come in the posture of a student and that will start your ball rolling. And I think the staying in curiosity, not just when you're in physical spaces and putting yourself in physical spaces to learn from, and like join up with organizations or individuals, but also in social space, like in the social media space, right? 

Who are you following on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, are you looking at things that people are doing in the area that you're interested in? And that can be from a perspective of work you want to create or work that they're doing, that you don't know why yet, but it sparks your interest in some way, like follow it, allow it to emerge. Um, and then you have more of a solid ground for having mutual conversations, because you're not just popping in and out. You're actually, you've tracked this conversation for a while. You've tracked this organization and you have questions that come from an authentic place. So, you know, a lot of times I teach in my, my networking workshop that I would do people have this idea? Well, what do I say? I'm like, yeah, what do you want? What are you on? What are you thinking about? Okay, now let's, let's clean it up a little bit, but that's where you start. That's where you start. It's, it's not, it doesn't have to be a mystery. It's about relationship development and starting from an authentic place of inquiry. 

RPR: Right. And it doesn't have to be a transaction when you come from that place of curiosity, it's learning, it's not some sort of situation that would require attention or transaction or anything like that. It really is that that place of curiosity, that's so important. That's great advice thinking about how we can rethink networking, how we can rethink, how we engage with people from a space of curiosity and learning. If you were going to give a piece of advice to women, academics in general, or those who are maybe considering a side gig or something like that, what would, what would your one piece of advice be 

FW: Get in community, get in community, get your idea, socialize your idea. You know, you have it, even if it's not all fully formed, you have it and you get to explore it. And I think what's important here is a lot of times women and people in general, anyone we don't make time for these things. We don't make time for our ideas, especially when they feel a little bit kind of off the track or off of, off of our main thing, whatever our main thing is. And so I would say, you know, being able to kind of honor your ideas, they don't need to be executed right away, but certainly honoring the fact that there's something that is on your mind and in your heart, or kind of stirring in you, or kind of got your curiosity peaked, then find ways to talk about it more with people and find ways to create space for it. It could just be thinking time online, researching time, but honoring the idea and allowing it to evolve. That's what I would say. 

RPR: Such powerful advice. Thank you so much for being with me today. It's always wonderful to talk to you. 

FW: Thank you. Thanks so much for the invitation. 

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the agile academic podcast for women in higher ed. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did to make sure you don't miss an episode. Follow the show on apple, Google, or Spotify podcasting apps and bookmark the show. You'll find each episode, a transcript and show notes at theagileacademic.buzzsprout.com, Take care and stay well.

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