On this episode, Dr. Kelly J. Baker and I have an engaging conversation about taking winding career paths, being authors, and how our mental health impacts our work.
On this episode, Dr. Kelly J. Baker and I have an engaging conversation about taking winding career paths, being authors, and how our mental health impacts our work.
Rebecca Pope-Ruark: On this episode, Dr. Kelly J. Baker and I have an engaging conversation about taking winding career paths, being authors, and how our mental health impacts our work.
Hello listeners. Welcome to the agile academics, a podcast for women in and around higher education. This season, I talked with my special guests from all over academia about purpose values and what it means to be an advocate in higher ed for students, for labor, for kindness, and for balance and self care. I'm your host, Dr. Rebecca Pope rework.
Welcome to the show, Kelly. Thanks for being here today.
KJB: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.
RPR: Great. So why don't you just start by telling the audience a little bit about yourself?
KJB: Sure. I have a PhD in religious studies and for a while was in academia as both a graduate student and then later as a lecturer and now I am a freelance writer, so my career's kind of gone back and forth in that I went from lecture to freelance writer, primarily in higher ed journalism to editor of higher ed publications. Now back to freelance writer, I write on a whole bunch of topics ranging from white Christian nationalist movements, which is my prime academic work to, um, zombie apocalypses to, um, the whole memoir that is, uh, basically extended quit lit, I think about academia to mental health and mental disorders. So I, I write about a whole bunch of things, but I started out as an academic and I think I still very much inhabit that identity in a lot of ways.
RPR: How would you describe that relationship that you have with higher education still?
KJB: Yeah, no, it's a hard one. So the longest time, what I would say is that I was adjacent to academia, so not quite separate from it, but somewhere sort of close some of the work that I do now as a writer could be considered independent scholarship. It also could just be considered very well researched kind of journalism, depending on how you understand it. I'm never quite able to step away from the academy. <laugh> quite in the way that I thought I might. I feel like every time I move a little further away, I get pulled back in so close, but not in it, I guess would be the way to talk about my relationship with academia mm-hmm
RPR: <affirmative>. So I've been talking to folks this season really about kind of purpose and values and your career path has just been so interesting and I'm sure in the moment it may not have felt interesting at
KJB: Some point <laugh> right. <laugh>
RPR: But there was a lot of, you know, a lot of choices that you made that have led you in down this path and to the wonderful writing that you share with us all the time. I'm always so excited to read something new from you. So I'm curious when you think about your purpose over the last few years, and maybe some values that you hold dear, that kind of guide what you do, what, how might you, how might you describe those to us?
KJB: Sure. Yeah. I will say that my career definitely wasn't a planned out thing. It was much more haphazard, but I do think it was very much defined by a couple different things. Um, one was trying to figure out who I was as an academic to figure out who I was gonna become. Right. So part of it is identity work and being really self-reflective about where I am, where I'm located, where it came from, what that means now for me. Um, and, and what it meant then. So a lot of it started out as that kind of like figuring out what I was gonna do if I wasn't gonna be an academic. The other kind of thing that motivated me is I've always had this kind of strong, ethical sensibility about the things that I'm writing about and what I'm trying to pay attention to.
So I'm always kind of drawn to topics where there's a social justice ethic that I think needs to be paid attention to. And so a lot of my early writing for instance, is on contingent labor, right. And the problems with it about, um, contingent labor and the academy. So that's part of it too. And then in all honesty, so much of what I've written has just been driven by curiosity about different topics. That very much, I think the academic brain that I have that has kind of followed me through is that they'll be something that I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And I haven't seen anyone kind of talk about it in this way or think about it in this way. Ooh. I should learn more. Right. And then the next thing I know, I'm like deep in research and I've got a 5,000 word essay and I don't know how it's happened, you know, but it's because I'm particularly kind of interested in intersections too.
Like the intersections of labor, for instance, and gender, right. The intersection of race and nationalism. So it's me kind of digging into those topics and following that curiosity where it goes, that is a lot of this. And I think that's primarily been my motivation throughout my career is it's like, Ooh, what is this about? Right. And like, how can I dig in and figure something out about this? And it's those topics that folks sometimes overlook or don't want to look at that really are the ones that I wanna pay attention to, which means I end up in weird research spaces like white supremacy, right. Or apocalyptic, because I'm like, oh, that's kind of intriguing. And then the next thing I know, I'm like, oh, I picked another scary topic to write on. Awesome. <laugh> this is great. That makes wonderful choices. But I think those three are primarily kind of where my writing agenda comes from. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> as to kind of think through my experience sometimes too is a way to think through more universal experiences. Cause they, it's kind of boring just to learn about me. But if there's something about what's happening with me that applies to other people, then that's more interesting. I think I hope.
RPR: Yeah, no, definitely. We're gonna laugh a lot this episode. <laugh>
KJB: No, no, it's good. I, I, you know, I would, I would rather laugh my way through, um, these kinds of things, but um, yeah. So anyway.
RPR: Yeah, no, I think that's really important. And I've been, I've been thinking a lot lately, because as I mentioned to you before we got on the call, my book is in copy edits right now. So I'm finishing up the final edits and, and thinking about, I think <laugh>, I think as a writer and maybe you feel this way too, it's like once something's about to come out as a publication, you're kind of over it. Right.
KJB: <laugh> right. No, you are like, you're so done.
RPR: <laugh> I've been there. I've done that now. I'm kind of circling around it again, but also thinking about, you know, having taken a break for my own writing for a while. Right. What is it that I want to jump back in as knowing that the burnout book is coming out in September and it's gonna be back in my life and how do I figure out, how do I figure out what I wanna do next?
KJB: So yeah. Yeah. That's the hardest, isn't it like the, the what's next kind of question. And I mean like you, at some of those things where I haven't been as actively writing right now, I guess, um, we'll say that I'm on hiatus or something. Maybe that's a nice way to put it, but I mean like the, the reality of it is I was just so burned out that like even the thought of like trying to like work on a book just makes me kind of wanna lie on the floor, which just made me not maybe answer to your question that you want, but, but I think that, you know, there is something to be said about once you finish a big project like that to, to figure out like, what do I kind of wanna do next? And, and for me it always like starts small, right?
It's a question or it's a tweet or something like this that then I'm like, oh actually I have more to say about this than I thought I had to say about this. Right. And then kind of build it from there. Um, because my books always have started as essays first, none of the books that I've written, except for my main academic monograph, which is a different, a different kind of thing. Right. That my other books have always started out as like an essay on something that then I'm like, oh, there's this other facet of this? Oh, there's this other facet. And then the next thing I know, I have tens of thousands of words on a particular topic because there's just so much more to say or so much more to analyze. And so that's kind of, what's helped me in my career is always to realize I don't have to move from like one giant project to another giant project.
I can actually move to a smaller one that might emerge to be something larger. It might not right. It could be a one off essay. But to understand that like just to go back to the small really helps me. And it especially helps me after you finish something big with a book, which is like high stakes and there's all the stuff that comes with it, um, to go back to something that's kind of low stakes and can be fun, you know, in a way. Um, whereas by the time I think you've finished a book on a certain topic, a lot of the fun is just not there anywhere. Like I feel like you revive some of that fun when you're out and you're talking to people about it and they're interested. But I think like when you're finished and you're like, you are where you're in the final edits, you're just like, can someone else please just look at this thing?
Right? Like just mm-hmm, <affirmative> just someone else who is not me. Right. Like, look at this in some way. Right. And then I think when something gets published, I'm like, oh, I did this thing. This is amazing. Cause my brain is like blocked out all the like awful stuff, you know? Like, um, I think it's like when you have an infant, you can't remember like that first nine months and you can't remember because otherwise none of you would survive. <laugh> like, if you can remember like some of not greatness of it, I feel like it's the same way with book writing. Like there's certain parts of it that just like disappear from your brain because you would never write anything again. <laugh> you could remember each kind of painstaking stuff. Um, yeah. But yeah. I mean, maybe it's just me, but I feel like my brain is really good at being like, no girl, you don't need to remember how terrible is to do this part. Just, just block it out. Right? Yeah.
RPR: In some ways for me writing this book, I think was, was, it was cathartic in a lot of ways as I, as I'm sure a lot of your essay in your books have been as well. And I look back fondly on kind of some of the writing of it cause it wasn't just me, there were other people's ideas in there. Right. And other people's work. So in some ways I was compiling this kind of weird thing and I think that helped keep it kind of on track.
But I really love the idea. And the reminder to go back to small, I think one of the aspects of higher ed is this constant expectation escalation. So once you've done kind of one thing, it has to keep rising from there. Yes. So once you've written a book, you feel like the next thing you have to do has to be a
KJB: Book to be a book. Yeah. Right? No, it's, it's wild too. About how that mentality doesn't quite leave you. My partner got a pretty big laugh at me where I had this moment probably about a month ago where I was like, I don't have a book coming out in 2022. There are lots of reasons. I don't have a book coming out in 2022. Right. Tons, including, you know, pandemic. Right. Whatever. So, but it was one of those things where I had this moment where I was like, I, I don't, I don't have a book coming out this year and he's like, okay. And I'm like, and I didn't have a book come out last year. And he's like, oh, okay. And I was just like, I'm freaking out a little bit, man. And he's like, no, it's cool because you know, like other stuff happens and you can't always be writing, but it is that really funny, like thing where I was like, no, like what I'm supposed to be doing is writing a book a year, which is bananas.
Like let's just admit that that's absolutely a banana's idea that I could actually, I mean, people are able to do this. I'm not one of those people, but you know, like this idea that like I have to have a book out right. Like, and I have to have it out like immediately. And so I had to sit with that for a little while and be like, maybe we need to change our perspective a little bit. Right. On like what we can accomplish versus the sort of pressure we feel, you know? And a lot of that I think for academics too, is that internal pressure. Right? You internalize all of us. So it's like, yeah, I have to move from book to book. Right. or I have to move from not just a book, but it has to be like an award-winning book to this next award-winning book. And that's just like, it's not good for us first of all.
But I do think we get that external pressure from institutions and then that internal pressure that we have about like, oh, we have to make sure that we're doing the next big thing. Right. That we're always on top of it. And we're always doing something important. And I, so I have to remind myself about the small thing all the time where it's like, no, no, no, no. Right. All of the starts from a small and tiny place and that's good. Right. And that we can build it. But I, I mean, I still deeply feel it where periodically I'm just like, I don't think I've done enough. And um, my, one of my writing buddies is just like, are you for real right now? He's like, do I need to go to the catalog? And I'm like, no, no one needs to go to the catalog. Right? Like no one needs to do that. But I mean, that, that just that pressure to perform. Right. And to always be somehow at the top, I think is so hard to shed. And um, you know, I haven't been officially in the academy in almost eight years now. And so I still feel that kind of pressure and build up periodically. And I've just gotten better at talking myself down from it. If that makes sense. Mm-hmm
RPR: <affirmative> yeah. It's absolutely some level of indoctrination that, that we feel like with, I mean, there's that constant kind of shame talk in your head too. Like, like you said, I should be doing this. Why isn't this happening? Right. Yeah. This is where I'm supposed to be. This is my identity. Who am I, if I'm not
KJB: Right. Thanks.
RPR: That's that's just so it's just so embedded in, in what academic academia teaches us as we kind of move up through the ranks and, and through our programs.
KJB: Right. And, and I think one of the things that I had to realize too is that, that there really is never enough, right? Like in this system, there's like never a point that you're gonna get to that. Someone's gonna be like, you know what, you've done plenty. Right? Like that's just not how it works in academia. Um, becuase there's always this next sort of thing that they want you to do or this next sort of level, or this assumption that you're always leveling up. Right. And your career is doing this in some sort of way so that you never reach a stage where everybody's like, oh it's cool Kelly, great, like good job <laugh> you can rest now. Right? Like that doesn't happen. It's very much like if you wanna rest, then you have to force yourself to do this rest or, you know, um, but you're never gonna have anybody that's like, unless you've a good support network and it's entirely likely that folks do that are just like, no, you need to like slow down. Um, and I'm super glad to have supportive people like that who are just like, you've gotta chill. And I'm like, but I don't wanna chill. I'm not chill. And they're like, no, we just have to, right. Like you can't actually produce anything unless you rest. And I think that's nonsense, but also entirely true. <laugh>
Like my husband, My husband and I had this ongoing kind of argument about, I need a hobby <laugh>
KJB: Yeah, no,
RPR: He, you know, he has motor, he races motorcycles and he does all this stuff and he's like, you need a hobby. And I'm like, but what writing is, my hobby <laugh> work. <laugh>
KJB: No, I, I completely understand. And I had to have surgery earlier this year on my ankle. And so, um, one of my friends was like, okay, I'm sending you coloring books. Right. We're gonna try coloring books and maybe we can convince you to sit down. Okay. So I heard that some people like embroidery, I have an embroidery set, not in this office, but in another room, I don't know that I'm ever gonna do embroidery, but like the hopefulness that people have that they're gonna like convince me to pick up a hobby is lovely. And I appreciate them deeply. I don't know it's gonna happen. Right. But like I do love the idea that they just kind of know that there are certain people who are over shapes who are had this academic background, right. Who are perfectionists that really have a hard time with that. You should distress and do stuff for fun. And I'm like, huh? I'm like, what? Okay. I guess so, you know, I watched more TV, which is great, you know, and read more novels. But yeah. But the idea that like <laugh> that people keep trying to get hobbies to stick for me. And it's just, I mean, bless them, but it is not <laugh> it is not going according to places
At all. But yeah. But so it's just also trying to come terms with, sometimes we just have to rest. Right. And our bodies will full stop us if we don't, I think is one of the things that I've really learned over the past couple years that it's like, oh no, you can only push yourself in this model for so long before the body is like, no, sorry, <laugh> just kidding. You're not doing this today. Right? Yeah. Like you're not. And, and I think that's the parts that often gets overlooked too in the academy, right. Is, are so focused on like intellectual work and brain work. And we're not paying attention to what that might do to our brains or our bodies in some kind of way, because it definitely has effects.
RPR: Absolutely. We become disembodied from that because our brain is our livelihood. We live in our brains. Right. And you know, who are we, if our brain isn't doing what it's done in the past or doing more than it's done that it has done in the past. It was certainly my experience with burnout that my body gave up after a while. Yeah. And it, it was, it was too much, it was too emotional. It was too intellectually exhausting that it just kind of shut down for a while. And there's, you know, there's, there's shame associated with that as well. You know, when you're coming up as an academic, this idea that you can't do everything that you can't continue to push yourself at that pace that is that there's internalized shame there that we don't talk enough about.
KJB: No, I think it's definitely the case. And you know, and it is sort of those things where there are people and I think I was one of those people for a while that seemed like the person that could do everything right. People would be like, oh my gosh, it's amazing. Like you're writing, you're parenting, you're partnering, you're doing this. Like you're volunteering for this service work. You're doing this. And like, yeah. Okay. So it does look like I am doing everything, but I'm office also in my office on, at 5:00 AM, you know, on my days not to do the childcare in the morning or I'm answering emails, but like two <laugh> cause I'm up because I have insomnia again. Right. Like, so I think that there is this idea that there are people that do it, but I don't think folks like see the toil and the trouble that we have in our lives because we're doing that kind of thing.
Right. Like, um, I don't know that anybody knew that, like I was just walking around like so anxious that I could crawl on my skin. Right. but they're like, oh look, she's doing everything she's supposed to do. And I'm like, yeah. But like it's not pretty at all. Right. I mean, it might look okay on the outside, but that's not what the inner life was in any sort of way. Right. And so, yeah. So I do think it is this thing that we sort of see other people and we're like, wow, they can do it. Why can't we do it? And the answer is they can't really do it either. <laugh> right. For an extended period of time. Right. These are very much time limited ways to be in the world. And, and I think that it's hard to see that sometimes.
RPR: Right.
KJB: Unless folks are really honest about, oh no, like I did all of this. Let me tell you what kind of toll that took. And I think that kind of radical honesty is hard. Right? in the academy where everyone's trying to look serious and look like they've got it together and are always moving forward. That it's hard to be that kind of honest and vulnerable about actually, this really sucks and it's kind of hard and I'm not doing as well as you think I am. Right. that's hard for people to say just generally, but I think academic culture makes it even harder for that to happen.
RPR: Absolutely. I had an experience, you know, I don't think I would've told anyone about the burnout initially if I hadn't had a massive panic attack in front of one of my senior colleagues, it was before the semester, my schedule was a nightmare and I just lost it when she asked me, yeah, she just asked me how, how was your summer? And I mean, I lost it. And you know, it was one of those things where hearing someone else say, you need help and you need a break, you deserve a break, you know, things that you don't expect people to say, or you don't right. You just don't show that kind of emotion. Right. Yeah. And, and after going through that experience and talking to some, some of my chair and, and some other folks, you know, I had people telling me that they'd been worried about me for a while, that I was doing too much. I was pushing too hard that I seemed like I was always sick. And you know, part, part of me is like, I wish they would've told me that. Right. But the other part of me is like, I wouldn't have listened.
KJB: No, no, I, I had a similar experience. Right. Like, and in grad school, I actually a professor like stop me in the hallway and be like, are you okay? And I'm like, it's fine. It's like me. Like, why are you asking me? You know? And like, his comment to me is he's like, you always are kind of walking around downtrodden and looking like the world is your burden alone. And I was like, cool, bro. Thanks. You know, but I mean, it was like this really honest moment where he's like, you don't look so great and maybe we should be paying attention to this in some sort of way, but I wasn't ready to hear that as a graduate student. Right. It was one of those where I'm like, no, I can just kind of power through it. And, and similar to you, I had experiences when I decided to walk away from academia for a little while where there were people that were like, oh, thank goodness.
Like we were really worried about you. Right. We're glad you're gonna like take a break. And we're glad that you're gonna, you know, take a step back and reevaluate. And, and it was towards surprising to me right. Where I was like, oh, I thought I was doing better at like convincing everybody I was okay. And like, it totally wasn't what was happening. Right. And I think the other thing that I've learned is that these are easy patterns to fall back into. Right. So that, like I find myself even now doing that kind of thing where I'm just like, oh no, like I'm completely okay. It's fine. Like my eye is twitching and I'm not sleeping, but I'm like, no, it's okay. It's cool. Right. I've got it under control when I, when I don't. And so I think it's really hard to kind of get out of that habit too, once you've already been in it. And, and I think that's part of the conversation too, is it's like these habits get ingrained. Yeah. And that tendency to push ourselves to burn out becomes ingrained too. Like even, and it's even worse because then you can like watch it, you know, like the slow moving wreck that's happening, where you're like, I know that I probably shouldn't be doing this again instead yet. here. I am in it once again. So I'm eager to read your book and see if you have a way to tell me to not do that. <laugh> Anymore.
RPR: I've blocked it out. I don't know what it says right now.
KJB: Oh, that's great. Um, yeah, no, I, it is. And it's funny though, right? You're like, Nope. That's part of the, like the part that I've erased, like Who Knows anymore. Yeah, no, that's funny. Yeah.
RPR: It's also, you know, author to author. It's also very scary to put that out there. You know, you and I have talked before that your essay collection, grace period was really, really important to me as I was going through burnout and really trying to connect outside of that. Um, and it really meant a lot to me and the idea right now of like, I'm struggling with the idea of the burnout book coming out now because it's, it's actually real and it's gonna be in people's hands. And that's a lot of me in that, in that particular space.
RPR: Yeah. No, it's, I think it's so hard when you, especially going from academic writing to writing that includes the personal right. And our personal experiences. I think it's a really hard transition, right. To be that transparent and honest and on the page. when, in my academic book, I'm not, that's not what's going on there, but with grace period, I mean, it's me being like, come along on this journey. Right. Cause I'm messy and you're about to get a sense of like how messy this is. Right. And, and how messy this can be, this identity work because it is right. Yeah. So it was really terrifying to me when that book came out where I was just like, what have I done? I have just pretty much handed people over my life and been like wade through it. Good luck. <laugh> not sure how I feel about it still, but like enjoy.
Um, so yeah, I can remember very vividly being like, oh no, oh, people are gonna read this. And so, especially with that book, because it's so much about that transition out of the academy into trying to figure out the fact that like I had built my whole life and whole career around this one idea of who I should be and then trying to figure out like, how do you refashion that in some way? And that book kind of does it real time. Right. which is equally scary. So, so yeah, to just be able to say like, oh yeah, I know what crisis in this book, do you wanna thumb through that? I went through, you know, that, um, or people that are like, oh, I read this essay and it meant so much to me. And I always have this moment where I'm like, I'm glad it meant so much to you.
And then be like, they read what I wrote down <laugh>, which is the whole point of being an author. Right. But I think, I think for those of us that end up writing more personally, like that is a, like, it's a different kind of thing, you know, definitely where I always have this moment where I'm like, how was it? Right. Like this really funny kind of reaction. Um, whereas if someone's like, oh, I read your book on the Klan, you know, and I use it for my class. I'm like, awesome. That's amazing. Right. I don't have those kind of complicated feelings, the ones where people are looking at my experience as a way to sort of talk about some of these issues. But yeah, no, I think it, um, I feel you and I understand, and I do think it gets a little bit easier, but I still, like, I have these essay collections like that come out.
I always had this moment where I was like, well, okay, we're just gonna, as my mom would say, like share my business with everyone in the world. Like, cool. Okay. Like that was a choice I made, you know, um, that maybe I regret maybe I don't, but yeah, no, I think it is. I think it is really tough. And, and I think that it, it is that kind of like moment where I'm like, well, it was published. Okay. Right. You know, what am I gonna do nice for myself today, which is not look at Amazon or if people are buying it or Facebook regrets, this or buying kinds of things, you know? But yeah, no, it is, it is, it is interesting. But I do think the other thing I will say is that the power of those personal narratives to reach people I think is very, very important to, so anytime anybody likes Grace Period, I always have this moment where I just feel like I've done a remarkable job whether I have or not.
but I just feel like if someone can kind of pick it up and find it useful, then that's really neat in a way that someone picking up and using my academic work is not, it doesn't have the same kind of emotional response for me as if someone's picked that up or picked up, you know, more recent writings that I have on mental health and mental illness. so I always feel a little bit different about those, but I think that there's something about those personal narratives that really work and are very effective and connect us in a way that, you know, regular academic writing isn't really about those kinds of connections generally, so. Right. Um, so, Um, it is good.
RPR: And I think so. Yeah, so much of what we do, um, as academics is kind of being trained to tear things apart in a way it's this constant kind of level of critique, how do we, how do we write things to connect us together? Right. That Excavate some of that, that shame that we've been trained to have right. Related to identity work and who we are and who we're not, and who we're in some cases pretending to be, I mean, I feel like by the end of my kind of career as a faculty member, you know, I, I was pretending to be the person that, that people expected me to be, you know, where the real me is kind of cowering on the couch, playing solitaire at all hours of the day.
KJB: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. No, I mean, and I think that there is that kind of in vulnerability piece to academic identity, right. Is that nothing ever has to bother you and you're a critic and you're an analyst and that that's like clinical and separate. Right. And, and just very, very disembodied, often an attempt to make it as totally unemotional as it can be, even though we know that it's emotional and that you can't really separate it out this way. Yeah. I think there is that kind of reward for in the academy for those people that are able to play a serious faculty member, serious scholar that they're always on and can do this. And, you know, I was pretty good at that game for a while. Right. Like that I could turn it on when I'm like, when I'm not crying in my office.
Right. I mean, so that's the thing, right? It's like, like I can do this in front of students is cool. And then I can come back and like solve my way through the office hour that none of them comes to you. Okay. But very much the kind of disconnect between here is the performance and here is what's actually going on with me and it's not, it's not a good scene, but I think, I think it's hard to get folks to admit, you know, to that kind of thing. Right. Or to admit to how hard it is to be a faculty member or on staff at university, especially even right now. Right. Like in this middle of this pandemic, like it's even harder. And I think folks still are just real hesitant to like, say, actually, this is really hard, you know? And there are lots about this, this sucks. Um, because there's just not that space for that kind of thing. Right. To admit the toll that it's taking on people, not institution. Right. Not these other sorts of things
RPR: Yeah. In some ways we, we're kind of trained to not bring our humanity into the work that we do. Right. So many ways. Right. That it's, it is scary to, to be that vulnerable with someone. Yeah. You know, Like to have that panic attack in front of someone, right?
Yeah. You Just be sobbing in front of someone that yep. Doesn't necessarily have any power over you, but it's still I'm in my office sobbing <laugh>
KJB: Yeah, no, you
RPR: Are hearing me do this. Right. And that's, that's quote unquote weakness and you can't show anything that looks like you don't belong there or you haven't earned your spot there because there's always someone else who's, who's willing to come up and someone who deserved your job just as much as you do. Right. Whatever that job is, right.
RPR: Yeah. No, I mean, and that the competition piece is I think what makes it so much worse, right? is the nervousness that at any moment you could be replaced because there are just so many people vying for so few jobs. Right, right. Um, so that, why would you, you know, tell someone you're struggling, if you're afraid, like if there's a possibility you could be like, I understand that viscerally, that fear there, but I do think in the long run, it definitely doesn't help us that that is this idea that we can kind of REM remove our humanity from these situations. Right. Like that we can just kind of yeah. Ignore that stuff and it, it doesn't work. And it definitely filters down to teaching too, because we're not allowing students to be human either, right. If we're not allowing ourselves that we're not allowing other people around us to do that either. And, um, and that kind of inhumane approach to ourselves and to others definitely doesn't make the academy a nicer, kinder place to be.
RPR: I think that, and I mean, I hope, and I've, I've seen that over the course of the pandemic, we have had helped faculty members and, and staff and students to be more human with each other because we're all in so much, you know, at the same time faculty members and staff dealing with secondary trauma associated with students own health and wellbeing. So I mean, I'm hopeful that some of that flexibility continues. Right. But I think if there's still, there's still a sense of that being at odds with rigor, for example. Yeah. As a term. Yeah.
KJB: Yeah. You know, it's it's it's I know you can't. I was like, your listeners can't see me roll my eyes, but maybe they can hear it in my voice. No, but I, I do think there is that weird bifurcation that rigor means this one thing, and then anything emotion based or focusing on the humanity of students or ourselves somehow isn't rigorous, right? Like that these two are always in opposition without realizing that maybe this is the wrong way to frame this and frame what we're doing. But it is kind of interesting to me how often I hear people be like, well, it's not my job to be someone's therapist. And we're like, I'm not asking you to be someone's therapist. therapists get paid good money because they know what they're doing. What I'm asking you to do is to at least have a little bit of empathy and compassion right.
About, um, these sorts of things. But I, again, I think it's really hard to extend those. If you're not extending them to yourself at all, either. Right. like that you're not being compassionate about what you're going through and right. That, that, that kind of lack of self-compassion definitely echoes out. Right. in some kind of way that, how you're, how you're interacting with other people. Yeah. And so that, I mean, I think that's part of why I like writing the books that I've written, which are based in personal essay, but are also research and are analytical is because it gives me a way to do that kind of self-reflection piece too. Right. Like that to say, okay, like I'm coming at it this way. Why am I doing that? Why am I so hard on myself? I feel like so much of grace period is why did you put yourself through this?
Right. Like, so part of it is an indictment of institutions, but part of it's also a, like, I've internalized this and you've about the internalized chain here. Right. I've internalized this and then I'm making it worse on myself without kind of recognizing it for a while before it's like, oh no, I'm doing it to myself. Right. The call is coming from inside the building. This is not a good sign. And so just trying to figure that out, figure out how to be okay. with some of this stuff is it's really hard. it's a real struggle to say, actually I can't do all the things that I thought I could do that doesn't mean I'm less of a writer or less of an academic. It just means that I'm a human being and that there are always constraints on us in some kind of way. Right. And obligations and things that we need to be there for, and, and these kinds of things. But I think it is so hard. So, so hard to get out of that, that mindset.
RPR: Yeah. In that sense that we don't share, we don't talk about mental health or, you know, I think we do talk about it now, but I think that, and I think that we were starting to talk about it and take it more seriously for students before the pandemic. Yes. That we were starting to see a lot more mental health care in, at institutions for students. And one of the things that I admire about you too, is your, your advocacy and your stance on sharing mental health challenges and right. Issues. So, you know, why is that important for you?
KJB: Yes. I tweet a lot about, um, mental health and mental disorder and do a whole bunch of advocacy there. And, uh, part of the reason I do this and I write about this a little bit in a more recent book on it's on grief and trauma and mental illness. And one of the reasons that I'm so open and honest with Twitter about this is that for the longest time, I was convinced that my bear was just like broken, right? Like that everybody else had brains that were functional. Mine was broken. I was in the academy where your brain is the most important thing. And I was quietly losing it where I was like, my brain can't not work. Right. Like it can't not work. It has to work because this is what makes me me. And so for the longest time, I struggled with generalized anxiety disorder with bipolar 2 disorder, which I folks don't know the main kind of thing here that makes it different. And bipolar 2 is extreme depressive episodes. So that's what characterizes it. And, and some hypomania. So for me, in this instance, it would be like irritability, right. Or something that would continue on. So that I struggled with those without having a diagnosis until I was in my late thirties, because I felt like if I got a diagnosis, then I would have to admit to everybody that my brain didn't work the way it was supposed to work. Right. And that's before we get to the later diagnosis of ADHD and right. Like, and like, so this kind of fun thing, right? Like there are all these things that I kind of knew were there, right. Like I knew I wasn't neurotypical before I had that language to talk about it. And I knew that I was anxious. Right. And I knew that I got depressed, but I sort of assumed like if I never get diagnosed for this kind of stuff, no one knows it's all internal to me.
And so I struggled throughout graduate school with all of that. becuase I didn't have support. I didn't have medicine. I didn't have therapy. I didn't have any of this thing. And graduate school made exacerbated a lot of this, especially my anxiety, my anxiety disorder very much got worse after graduate school. That's not an uncommon story. <laugh> I think about graduate school. Part of the reason I never got diagnosed was that kind of concern over the stigma there. What would people think? Right. If they knew this about me and the stigma around mental illness is very real. I do feel like we've had advances around that where people are being much more open and honest about living with disorders. But it became important to me to realize that if I had had someone who had been honest and transparent and I could see them living their lives and see that actually this is just something that they live with.
It's a part of who they are. It's not a judgment, it's not a moral call here. Like there's no, none of these sorts of things. Right. It's something that they live with and they just are continuing to push forward. That it would've been very helpful to me. And I probably would've gotten help sooner if I wasn't so deeply concerned about the stigma of it. So most of my mental health, a advocacy, excuse me, comes from that right. Where I'm like, okay, maybe somebody needs to see someone else who has an anxiety disorder and what it looks like to live through that. And you know, what it looks like is some days I'm okay and some days I'm not great and it just comes and goes, I will be depressed off and on for the rest of my life because that's just how this works, but I can cope and manage now in a way that I couldn't.
And so I try to be really clear about that on particularly Twitter, right? To say like, okay, this is what it looks like to live with depression. This is what it looks like when you need caffeine to cope with your ADHD. But you can't find your coffee cup again for like the 30th time for the day. Right. You need the caffeine to cope with the thing. But the thing means that you can't find the thing that you need. Right. Which is like my every day until about 10 o'clock. Right. <laugh> like until there's enough caffeine in my system, um, to make sure that that doesn't happen. So just to let people kind of know that there aren't alone in this in some sort of way, and to really work, to detract, to say, if I can talk about it, maybe someone else can talk about it.
You know, you can find ways to talk about it with people that you love or that are near and dear in a way that you might not have been able to previously I'm always so fascinated when people use a metaphor that I've used to talk about mental illness or they're like, oh, I explained this to my, my mom this way. And it was really helpful and I'm like, oh cool, terrifying, but amazingly cool that this was useful to you. And so yeah, it is one of those things where periodically I went to Twitter and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm out here on the internet, sharing my business again in the hopes that it's not just me out there saying and stuff, but in the hopes that it at least lets people connect and see that you're not the only one with anxiety. You're not the only one with bipolar.
You're definitely not the only person with ADHD that loses things. a thousand times a day. Right? Like that kind of thing. And then the other piece of that too, for me is I have two kids. So I wanna be really open with them about what it looks like to live with mental illness. Right. that this is just something that we live with. Right. And, um, we get help for it. Just like we get help for anything else that we would need help for. And just to really deescalate some of the like conversations around this, but also to just make it seem very normalized because it is. And just to kind of show that to you, I think is helpful rather than making it extraordinary or scary or, you know, any of these other sorts of things, which mental illness can be, but right. To just say like, you know, in the day in and day out, this is what it looks like.
RPR: I think to, in my experience, I wasn't diagnosed with my anxiety disorder until I was in grad school until I was in my master's program. And once the diagnosis was there, I was able to look back at my entire life and see it everywhere.
KJB: <laugh> yep.
RPR: Yep. You know, even as a little kid being terrified of fire alarms, things like that. Yeah. And having those panic attacks and being treated in the ER for asthma instead of panic attacks, people just didn't think about it. Yeah. The fact that we can have these open dialogues about it now, and it is more recognized and hopefully less stigmatized that I think is I just hope that we can continue to have those conversations, especially with grad students and, and folks who are coming up. Right. Because the realities of higher ed are not rosy.
KJB: No,
RPR: It's just the system that is, is not designed to work for you.
KJB: No, it's not. And you know, and I tell graduate students all the time that what they have to realize is that they're building a life and that graduate school is one piece of this mm-hmm <affirmative> right. It could be your career. It could not be your career. Right. Like we, we don't know, but that what they need to be doing is focusing on building a life. Right. And that their life should include a lot of things and that it shouldn't be narrowed down to work identity or something like this. Right. And part of building a life is trying to take care of yourself and taking care of yourself means that sometimes you're gonna need help. Right. And if that means that you need a therapist, perfect. Go to a therapist, I go to a therapist she hasn't fired me yet. It's a miracle like, you know, like that they're, you know, if you need medication, get meds, right?
Like that there are options here to make sure that our lives are better. And that's what I try to tell people too, is the coping mechanisms that I have now through therapy. And then the medical interventions that I have through medications mean that my life is better than it was because I've smoothed some of that stuff out. Like it's never going away, but it's manageable. Right. And it means that I'm building a better life than I had previously. And I want them to know that they can do that. And it doesn't have to just be academia centric. And to know that academia can do some not nice stuff to our brains. And so we need to make sure that we're paying attention to that. Right. and trying to make sure that our brains are healthy and that they're just parts of the way that graduate school structured. That's gonna just exacerbate this for folks that are already anxious, who are already depressed, that there are pieces of this that can make it a lot worse. And just to kind of, kind of know what those are and encourage them to rest, even as I'm still not I'm working on it, but like
To build rest, I was like, learn now, instead of learning like me in your late thirties and early forties, like, like learn it in your twenties right. Or early thirties, and then carry forward with it. Um,
RPR: Yeah. And you know, that the idea is that the ideas about self-care and self-compassion, and, and that being okay, that boundaries are a good thing.
KJB: Yeah.
RPR: Yep. No matter what, what you might see a colleague doing. Cause like you said earlier, right. We don't know what we don't know what's going on in other people's lives or how they're coping or if they're coping or not like just being able to kind of be role models to say, you know, it's, you're not always gonna be okay. And that's all. Yeah. You know, I have, I have a vivid memory. I have a vivid memory of being in a research seminar course in my PhD program. And one of the more senior graduate students coming in and talking about how she was doing her diss her, she was doing her entire dissertation, um, unmedicated. And we were just like, okay, <laugh> if you wanted to do it medicated, that would be fine too.
KJB: <laugh> yeah, no like this would be, this would be, this would be fine. And you could also do that. Yeah, no, it is. It is wild. That kind of expectations that seep into you in graduate school, about how much you work or about how people handle themselves. Or, and, and I think faculty often forget that they are the role models for folks for better or worse. So if they don't show boundaries and they are workaholics and this sort of thing, you shouldn't be surprised that their students are this way. Right. Cause this is the water that they swim in, right. This, this is how we're supposed to do things. And that's part of the reason I like Twitter is that you can see people are doing things differently who are like, Nope. Actually I am going to not answer emails on weekends. No, I'm not gonna be available after a certain time.
Um, no, I'm gonna take a day off when I need a day off. Right. Like to see that kind of thing, I think is super helpful to students. There was a conversation on Twitter about writing and someone drives me bananas that someone's like, I write every day and this is one of those things that makes me a little bananas. But I came in to say, I've never been able to write every day. Like I've just never been able to still a writer still, still writes things, but you don't have to do it every day. Right. Because we have lives and our lives are complicated and some people are able to carve out time, but some people can carve out time every day, right? Like this is the way it works. And, and I like that Twitter offers you the ability to sort of offer different alternatives.
This might be the tried and true suggestion that people give about writing all the time. That doesn't mean that that's how everyone does it. And, and folks should know that in some kind of way and like not writing, you know, that whole reading and researching and analyzing things also counts as writing, but like, you know, it still writing, but people don't tend to see it that way. And so, so I do like to be able to kind of pop on periodically and be like, oh, by the way, still not here for <laugh> for writing every day. Like still not here for it. But I think that that's a space where graduate students and undergraduates can see faculty in different places. They can see folks who are adjacent academia, like me just doing things differently and realizing that just because someone does something in their program doesn't mean that's the way it is everywhere else. Right. Or the way that has to be. And so I just hope that I'm helpful. <laugh> as opposed to not helpful, you never can, you never can tell on the internet. Right. Like how this works out. But, um, but I just, I think I learn a lot from what other people are doing and absolutely how they're acting. And, and so that helps me too. Yeah.
RPR: I think that's a wonderful note to wrap, to wrap up on to remember that, you know, we are all human and we all kind of are, are in this big world trying to figure out what's going on while navigating academia <laugh> or being adjacent to academia and the additional stresses that it brings. Thanks so much for chatting with me. It's always a delight to talk to you, Kelly.
KJB: Oh, you're welcome. I am so glad you invited me. This was lovely.
RPR: Thanks for listening to this episode of the agile academic podcast for women in higher ed. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did to make sure you don't miss an episode. Follow the show on apple, Google, or Spotify podcasting apps and bookmark the show. You'll find each episode, a transcript and show notes at theagileacademic.buzzsprout.com. Take care, and stay well.